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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old December 5 2012, 03:39 PM   #16
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Timo wrote: View Post
"But see the different nuances in the rationalizations, with a "pre-cracked inferior spare online with batteries" vs. "battery power until inferior pre-cracked spare can be brought online"."
Yes, and I definitely rather prefer to believe they were aware they (still) had a pre-cracked one they could use than to assume the spare was already damaged when brought aboard.

Bob
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Old December 5 2012, 03:51 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Ah, I meant "already cracked" when saying "pre-cracked", that is, I think Scotty knew fully well that he had a range of crystals aboard, from pristine to really substandard. It's just that this is the best Starfleet could provide him with, (di)lithium being such a rare resource. So he brought them on line one by one, finally keying in the cracked crystal he had been stashing away for a really rainy day.

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Old December 5 2012, 08:48 PM   #18
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"In "Mudd's Women", after the 3rd circuit blew out, they had to use battery power for the transport of the 3 women. During that time, they still had to maintain maneuvering and shields to protect Mudd's ship which in mind, lead to the cracking of the 4th crystal."
Or the shields were equally powered by this enigmatic "battery power":

FARRELL: We're clearing the asteroid belt now, Captain.
KIRK: Deflector screen down, Mister Farrell. Save the power.
Since Kirk was aware of the circuits burning out he could've just as well been referring to saving the 4th and last circuit from going out.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
We do know from "Mudd's Women" that the Enterprise only had 4 dilithium circuits onboard, we have seen 4 dilithium circuits in "The Alternative Factor" and do not know the exact energy output of "battery power".
We also know that the battery power was brought on to make up for the loss of the 3 circuits, not that it was substituting for ALL power (the difference between "supplement" and "supplant").
SULU: Another lithium circuit. Now supplementing with battery power, sir.
Because it was supplementing the power system, it is far more likely that there was a fourth active circuit that was powering the warp engines and the shields that were projected forward onto Mudd's ship. This would explain why the crystal was cracked and not a pristine one that was brought out of storage.

In "The Alternative Factor" they lost all four crystals but unlike "Mudd's Women" and "Elaan of Troyius", they have a working crystal converter assembly and thus they can still activate the bypass. In this case, they were likely not on battery power at all.


So to recap, basically we have a few different theories:

  • There are 3 active dilithium crystal circuits with a corresponding engine room. The 4th dilithium crystal circuit is a spare circuit. Does it have it's own engine room? When all 3 circuits go out, someone has to manually bring online the 4th one? Or install it?
  • There are 3 active dilithium crystal circuits with a 4th "hot" standby circuit. I don't know if Timo is advocating separate engine rooms.
  • There are 4 lithium/dilithium crystal circuits housed in a single crystal converter assembly. In Season 1, it was in the Main Energizer room. In Season 2 and later it was moved under one of the engine rooms in the engineering hull.
EDIT:


On the ones with separate engine rooms per crystal, how does a single crystal converter assembly work in the system?
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Old December 5 2012, 09:34 PM   #19
Albertese
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

The crystals referenced in "Mudd's Women" are not the paddle crystals seen later. Spock has one in the briefing room and it is a fist-sized (as per Scotty's lament about all the power channeling through a single crystal the size of his fist) clear faceted large diamond-esque crystal-ly looking crystal.

I posit that there are four of these crystals (which are not at all un-like the dilithium crystals as seen in TNG) that are used in anti-matter reactors to provide main power.

I suggest the paddles are a manufactured product. When raw, natural dilithium is faceted to work in the reactor, the ground off material is pressed into a standardized paddle form. The natural cut crystals can't be re-energized (as per Star Trek IV) but the smaller paddle crystals can be re-energized. Perhaps through use, the artificial crystalline structure is disrupted but these can be put into a re-energizing device which re-aligns the structure.

I further suggest that these paddles are used as batteries, and the battery power is in fact banks of these paddles. The times we see them being used in conjunction with the structure in the season 2-3 Engineering set could suggest that they are used (like the battery in a car) to jump start the system.

Makes sense to me...

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Old December 6 2012, 12:01 AM   #20
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

@ Albertese

Looks like we got carried away, thanks.

Spock presents the last crystal to Kirk in his cabin just prior to the arrival of the miners and it looks like a crystal and not like the 'paddle'. Maybe the change in appearance is another changed premise in the series or they used lithium crystals prior to dilithium crystals / paddles (maybe the "di" prefix stands for the mounting compatible ends ?) or else. But after the last / fourth crystal burned out, do I hear Kirk saying "the lithium crystals" or "dilithium crystals"?

I have a few concerns about re-interpreting actual dialogue.
In "The Alternative Factor" Kirk orders Masters to immediately "re-amplify" the dilithium paddles and they later talk about "re-amplification" which I believe is more in line with the re-crystalisation mentioned in ST IV than simply charging these with energy like batteries. There is no evidence that the crystals are being "re-energised" only that the "energiser" providing energy for the re-amplification components is short circuited by Lazarus.

The other thing is that the cage (or structure it sits in) in the engine room is a "dilithium crystal converter assembly". Another component specifically mentioned in TOS are "power converters". As to what these dilithium crystals convert may be a subject of speculation if one doesn't want to follow the official line but conversion seems the major purpose of dilithium crystals.

@ blssdwlf

# 1 - There are 3 active dilithium crystal circuits with a corresponding engine room for each of the three crystals (should the crystal in one of the engine rooms fail, the "cycling station" will reroute power from the remaining two to compensate the power loss) The 4th dilithium crystal circuit is a spare circuit.

# 2 -There are 3 active dilithium crystal circuits with a 4th "hot" standby circuit in the warp engine room (1 for each of the three reactors).

# 3 - There are 4 lithium/dilithium crystal circuits housed in a single crystal converter assembly.

Does this cover all the options?

Where I'm unable to subscribe is "In Season 1, it was in the Main Energizer room."
The Re-Amplification room or chamber seemed to be a place for the dilithium paddles to rest and relax, not to work. If we were to assume that the paddles can rest and work at the same spot, the large GNDN pods in the engine rooms would seem to be more suitable candidates, IMHO.

Bob

P.S. What could "re-amplification" mean? Here's a quote from Wikipedia concerning "stability and aging" of "crystal oscillator" to illustrate the stress crystals could be exposed to:

"The frequency stability is determined by the crystal's Q. It is inversely dependent on the frequency, and on the constant that is dependent on the particular cut. Other factors influencing Q are the overtone used, the temperature, the level of driving of the crystal, the quality of the surface finish, the mechanical stresses imposed on the crystal by bonding and mounting, the geometry of the crystal and the attached electrodes, the material purity and defects in the crystal, type and pressure of the gas in the enclosure, interfering modes, and presence and absorbed dose of ionizing and neutron radiation."
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; December 6 2012 at 01:08 AM.
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Old December 6 2012, 12:35 AM   #21
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Just to be sure we're seeing the same thing:

"Mudd's Women"
  1. Four fist-sized lithium crystals (only addressed as "lithium" crystals). Seen and in dialogue.
  2. single Converter Assembly. Spoken of but not seen.
"The Alternative Factor"
  1. Four paddle dilithium crystals. Seen and in dialogue.
  2. Four paddles in an "energizer". Spoken of and seen.
  3. Four paddles being "re-amplified". Spoken of but where and when were they re-amplified? Question - if they were re-amplified when the first two were stolen, why again were they still at the energizer when the last four were stolen when they a) did not need to be re-amplified and b) Kirk is counting on these last two for power, even if it is not full power?
  4. Converter Assembly. Not spoken of. Unknown if seen.
"Elaan of Troyius"
  1. Dilithium crystals. Spoken of but not totals and one seen.
  2. Fused Converter assembly. Spoken of. However, we only see one blackened crystal in the holder. Question - is the converter assembly below and unseen and as Timo said the holder is just on some sort of mini-elevator to somewhere deep in the ship? We know that they fit the new crystals to the same holder, so obviously that is not the fused converter assembly since the holder still worked...
What I'm trying to point out is that there are three different versions of the power system here probably from 3 different upgrades (in-universe). Still, there are some things in common:
  1. Four Lithium/Dilithium crystals (first two example episodes)
  2. Multiple crystals (last)
  3. Single Converter Assembly (first and last)
EDIT: Regarding "re-amplification":


In the context of this episode, it is specifically to "undrain" (I know it isn't a real word ) the drained crystals. In other words, Kirk wanted the crystal power back to full power and that meant adding power back into the crystals.
MASTERS: Whatever that phenomenon was, it drained almost all of our crystals completely. It could mean trouble.
KIRK: You have a talent for understatement, Lieutenant. Without full crystal power, our orbit will begin to decay in ten hours. Re-amplify immediately.
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Old December 6 2012, 01:32 AM   #22
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

BTW, it'd be kinda tight, but you could fit the "The Immunity Syndrome" engine room into the engineering hull on the port side. Good observation Bob on the engineering crew getting thrown towards the entrance when accelerating forward. Kirk also got knocked into the entrance when the ship accelerated forward as well.

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Old December 6 2012, 01:33 AM   #23
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"In the context of this episode, it is specifically to "undrain" (I know it isn't a real word ) the drained crystals. In other words, Kirk wanted the crystal power back to full power and that meant adding power back into the crystals.
MASTERS: Whatever that phenomenon was, it drained almost all of our crystals completely. It could mean trouble.
KIRK: You have a talent for understatement, Lieutenant. Without full crystal power, our orbit will begin to decay in ten hours. Re-amplify immediately."
I think there's some confusion between "power" and "capability" that has to be blamed on "drain" ("deterioration" would have been better). If the crystals simply needed to be recharged, then why didn't Kirk say so as every viewer back then would have perfectly understood.
If I understand correctly a practical use of crystals in real life is amplification and it appears the dilithium crystals had lost some of this capability. Though I don't see how this capability can be restored by "re-amplification" (a colloquialism, obviously) it probably works very well (like the infamous Heisenberg compensators ).

"Re-amplification" suggests a restoration of original properties / capabilities of the crystals opposite to "re-energise" or "recharge", IMHO.

Bob
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Old December 6 2012, 02:15 AM   #24
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
"Re-amplification" suggests a restoration of original properties / capabilities of the crystals opposite to "re-energise" or "recharge", IMHO.
The thing is that if it were a "restoration of original properties / capabilities then the dialogue would've went like this:
MASTERS: Captain, the crystals have deteriorated. They can't hold a full charge anymore.
KIRK: That's not good. Go re-amplify them immediately.
Instead, Kirk's "re-amplification" sounds more closer to the dictionary definition of to "increase the strength or amount of" (again) as in "increase the amount of energy again".
MASTERS: Whatever that phenomenon was, it drained almost all of our crystals completely. It could mean trouble.
KIRK: You have a talent for understatement, Lieutenant. Without full crystal power, our orbit will begin to decay in ten hours. Re-amplify immediately.
Interestingly, when those same crystals got drained again. Lazarus uses terminology we're more familiar with, such as "re-energize" to recharge the crystal to full power.
LAZARUS: That's very bad, Captain. If he comes through at a time of his own choosing. But I think if we hurry and you will help me, he can yet still be stopped. There's little time left. He meant to come through. When you accidentally passed through, it drained his crystals. It'll take him about ten minutes to re-energize with the equipment aboard his ship. That should give us enough time.
So, in both cases, the crystals are drained and in both cases to put energy back in them, they had to be "re-energized" with Lazarus' equipment or "re-amplified" in an Energizer on the Enterprise. To me, that follows the dictionary definition of "increasing the amount of power" in the crystals, IMO.
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Old December 6 2012, 11:10 AM   #25
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"So, in both cases, the crystals are drained and in both cases to put energy back in them, they had to be "re-energized" with Lazarus' equipment or "re-amplified" in an Energizer on the Enterprise. To me, that follows the dictionary definition of "increasing the amount of power" in the crystals, IMO."
Looks like the scriptwriter made quite a deliberate effort to confuse the audience with t(r)echnobabble. I see your point but wonder if instead of "Energizer Room" something like "Re-Amp Chamber" would be a more suitable term. Maybe the crystals first need to be re-amplified before these can be re-energized?

Great simulation of two adjacent engine rooms! In "The Immunity Syndrome" we do not see the cathedral and I wonder if the door to this engine room (difficult to see from this "EMM" ) is there. The ladder may also be easier to access than our usual EMM ladder.

Two of my friends made a suggestion which took me two nights to sleep over but I think they got a very good point: The main sensor parabolic dish assembly will probably draw a lot of power especially if it also provides the main deflector function for the ship.
Next to the warp nacelles this is the third but biggest mechanical structure of the ship facing forward.

It could require an engine room of its own which I think would also help to add credibility to the "triumvirate matter-antimatter-reactor" concept: One engine room (and cathedral) for each of the warp nacelles' reactors at the stern of the engineering hull, one engine room for the third reactor at the bow of the engineering hull (and one dilithium crystal converter assembly for each room holding one crystal - at least that was my original speculation).

Assumption: The bow engine room is the one mostly seen in the second season (as it would enable me to keep the circular corridor accurate as seen in "The Ultimate Computer"). The dilithium crystal here is permanently in the floor casing (only removable when the reactor is off), the box on top is the "spare box" with the extra fourth crystal paddle inside.
The two (warp) engine rooms at the stern feature the slide-out cage for quick replacement of the crystal during momentarily shutdown of the corresponding reactor (the other two will take over its workload).

It's a pretty wild guess, but could help to explain engine room studio set variations ("The Ultimate Computer" vs. "Elaan of Troyius" vs. "That Which Survives"), the double Season Two engine room aboard the Exeter in "The Omega Glory" and why at one occasion the sign near the main entry says "Engineering Section", then moves to the right side on top of a red sign and yet in another episode has a sign with Scotty's name on it (unless it's spare time fun of the engineering crew to move this signs back and forth) and last but not least why the power outlet used by Computer M-5 vanished in other engine room presentations.





If we assume that Scotty gave the order "engine rooms, cycling station"
(audible on intercom) from the "Engineering Control Room" in the saucer in "The Naked Time", the existence of multiple engine rooms is less a subject of speculation but conclusion.

Bob
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Old December 6 2012, 12:12 PM   #26
Mytran
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

The way this is shaping up is towards a generalised, decentralised Engineering Hull - which I like a lot!

At first I was unsure about scattering the crystals around different rooms in the ship. To my mind, all 4 crystals would be together, in that pop-out box from Elaan (we just only ever saw the top quarter of the holder).

However, this is starting to make sense to me - different engineering sections which ordinarily control their own parts of the ship (Impulse Engines, Deflector, port & starboard Nacelles) but which can (if neccessary) take over the workload for other areas during maintainence (or crystal failure). Scotty could be in any one of these Engine Rooms at any given time, depending on what was needed.

The phrase "I'll be in Engineering" now means he'll be in a rough area of the secondary hull (or saucer) rather than a specific room and when Scotty talks about his "Engine Room" (singular) he is simply referring to whichever one is required for that particular task - everyone would know which one he was referring to, hence no further elaboration is needed.

So, what of the bypass / convertor assembly? How does that fit into this engineering sprall? I think it must be at the central convergence of the energy transfer, otherwise it couldn't actually bypass anything. Perhaps it too has its own engine room?
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Old December 6 2012, 02:03 PM   #27
blssdwlf
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

@Bob - In "The Alternative Factor" it is possible that the crystals were "re-amped" somewhere else and placed in the "energizer" once fully amped. However, since re-amplify was tied to the amount of energy in the crystals and it required an energizer or energizing equipment I think it is simpler to say it all happened in the energizer.

As to "The Immunity Syndrome" engine room, it depends on if you think we saw different rooms at different times or the same one at different times as to what features it has

@Mytran -

As to the multiple engine rooms in the engineering hull, I figured there must be more than one. In the WIP, I placed them staggered in order to accommodate the width of the forward hallway in a 947' hull. If they were side by side, the EMM's would be next to each other and that would push the starboard turbolift potentially out of the hull.

The bypass/converter assembly I think is going to be interesting. If there were 4 engine rooms with 4 crystals, then the converter assembly would have to somehow be connected together to function as one unit. The sticking point is still the rooms with the black box instead of the slide up paddle holder. Did those rooms show up only prior to the appearance of the slide up paddle holder or did they also appear in episodes afterwards?

Or are you suggesting, a dedicated bypass/converter engine room that has the only slide up paddle holder that services the four dilithium paddles?

Last edited by blssdwlf; December 6 2012 at 02:17 PM.
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Old December 6 2012, 03:28 PM   #28
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Mytran wrote: View Post
"So, what of the bypass / convertor assembly? How does that fit into this engineering sprall? I think it must be at the central convergence of the energy transfer, otherwise it couldn't actually bypass anything. Perhaps it too has its own engine room?"
I assume general Star Trek audiences may already have difficulties accepting two engine rooms (one in the saucer, one in the engineering hull), three engine rooms in the engineering hull is already a difficult concept to sell and with four engine rooms I'm afraid we'll be loosing the audience (BUT: if you link two engine rooms at the EMM location, will that yield two engine rooms or just a larger, wider one? )

I feel there is a beautiful symmetry with three: Three reactors (one in each nacelle, one in the hull suggested by That Which Survives), three different signs on the engine rooms' main door, three different EMM locations (if you count the "life support" of the Defiant from "The Tholian Web" to be a variation) - and three crystals for three rooms (you saw this one coming, didn't you?).

@ blssdwlf

Please disregard my suggestion with the "spare box". As it appears the rectangular box was only present during Season Two and replaced by the extendable assembly cage in Season Three (I'd rather like to assume it was one of Scotty's upgrades as I mentioned in an earlier post).

As I see it now there are several options to (ab)use the engine room footage from "The Immunity Syndrome" (at least on a 1080' Enterprise):

Connect the engine rooms on their EMM sides (as you essentially did), "normal" engine room will be starboard, "IS" engine room port.
Advantage: Ceiling beams now make excellent sense, an open passageway below the EMMs connecting both rooms could justify to refer to both as one big engine room
Disadvantage: It would appear that both EMMs are separated for a strange reason. Access to "normal" EMM seems restricted, access to "IS" EMM seems to be available from the main floor of the engine room (In IS Scotty is moving back and forth between EMM and main floor)

Connect the engine rooms on their "balcony" sides, "normal" engine room will be port, "IS" engine room will be starboard.
Advantage: EMMs are now next the outer hull of the ship and ladder ends there because there is no way further up.
Disadvantage: Beautiful ceiling beam structure is lost

Bob

P.S.

Check out the Constellation's engine room. I've counted three noticable differences compared to the Enterprise's second season engine room set (I find it hard to attribute these to individual ship variations as there were no such variations aboard the Exeter and the Defiant):

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Last edited by Robert Comsol; December 6 2012 at 10:13 PM. Reason: Correcting own port / starboard confusion
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Old December 6 2012, 04:24 PM   #29
Albertese
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
....

P.S.

Check out the Constellation's engine room. I've counted three noticable differences compared to the Enterprise's second season engine room set (I find it hard to attribute these to individual ship variations as there were no such variations aboard the Exeter and the Defiant):

...
I would just like to quickly point out that there is much conjecture (based largely on the registry number) that Constellation may not have been a Constitution-class starship but an earlier class of ship refitted to Constitution standards. Perhaps the engine room variations are more evidence to that effect, since these changes were not present on Enterprise, Exeter, or Defiant, all of which were presumably new-built Constitutions.

Alternately, the Constellation could be a Constitution-class ship just like the others but had received some sort of experimental equipment or was otherwise modified by her crew... a practice which doesn't seem uncommon in Starfleet.

Either of these notions could explain why just one of these four ships seen on-screen would have a differently equipped Engine Room.

I don't mean to open up a can of "Was Constellation a Constitution" worms in this thread... I'm just trying to address the Engine room observations.

--Alex
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Old December 6 2012, 10:18 PM   #30
Robert Comsol
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Re: 3 engine rooms in the TOS Enterprise's engineering hull?

Albertese wrote: View Post
"Either of these notions could explain why just one of these four ships seen on-screen would have a differently equipped Engine Room."
You are right and I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out, you are becoming the voice of reason when I get overboard with some ideas.

Bob
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