Yesterday's Enterprise battle

[Dac]

If there is just one thing I want CBS-D to add/change in the entire series - it's at the end of this Battle after Riker is killed and Picard gives his "That'll be the day", jumps back to tactical and starts hammering away at the buttons. In the original SD version, the Enterprise fires like 3 piddly phaser beams and thats it. Yes, the ship is damaged, but she's already gonna blow - I wanted to see the scene alight with phasers all towards the Klingon ships. Show areas blowing out on the Enterprise as the phasers overload or some such - nothing much, just a half second of fizzling effects. Something to make it seem like Picard has nothing left to loose and is going to do everything in his power to take out the Klingons, even if it risks his own ship. The original shot just seemed too piddly for a big finish.

[Trekker4747]

Dac wrote:

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If there is just one thing I want CBS-D to add/change in the entire series - it's at the end of this Battle after Riker is killed and Picard gives his "That'll be the day", jumps back to tactical and starts hammering away at the buttons. In the original SD version, the Enterprise fires like 3 piddly phaser beams and thats it. Yes, the ship is damaged, but she's already gonna blow - I wanted to see the scene alight with phasers all towards the Klingon ships. Show areas blowing out on the Enterprise as the phasers overload or some such - nothing much, just a half second of fizzling effects. Something to make it seem like Picard has nothing left to loose and is going to do everything in his power to take out the Klingons, even if it risks his own ship. The original shot just seemed too piddly for a big finish.

Why? What would that add?

That's the problem I think Voyager and to some extent DS9 runs into, fixating too much on effects and 'splosions! Why? What's the point? What Picard is doing and why is pretty clear and has worked perfectly in that scene for 20 years now. Why change it?

[Dac]

Because in the live action shots, fire is everywhere, stuff is blowing up and the camera is shaking - you cut to the effects, and its as static shot with like 2 phaser beams - It really undersells whats happening.

[Trekker4747]

Dac wrote:

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Because in the live action shots, fire is everywhere, stuff is blowing up and the camera is shaking - you cut to the effects, and its as static shot with like 2 phaser beams - It really undersells whats happening.

Well, I'd say it served well in 1990 when the episode came out and it's done very well ever since. I don't see why they need to add in "kewl new maneuvers and 'splosions!" just for the hell of it.

[Mott the barber]

I see what both of you are saying...I could go for the middle ground of adding in an extra phaser shot or two.

[Reeborg]

I always felt that fight scene was very strange if not even ridiculous. The Klingons are steadily shooting but the Enterprise did mostly not (return) fire. Some (rare) faint shots at best. When they started at one time REALLY to shoot they blew immediately one bird of prey away. If they had done this from the start, instead of just taking the blows, they would have easily destroyed all three enemy ships. Okay it was probably a question of (production) cost, but still.

[Forbin]

Star Trek writers are not known for their knowledge of sensible military tactics.

[Mott the barber]

Reeborg wrote:

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I always felt that fight scene was very strange if not even ridiculous. The Klingons are steadily shooting but the Enterprise did mostly not (return) fire. Some (rare) faint shots at best. When they started at one time REALLY to shoot they blew immediately one bird of prey away. If they had done this from the start, instead of just taking the blows, they would have easily destroyed all three enemy ships. Okay it was probably a question of (production) cost, but still.

Yeah, I've always felt this way too, which is why I wouldn't mind an extra phaser shot or two added in. I'm not talking dramatic barrel rolls or anything though.

[Dac]

Mott the barber wrote:

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I see what both of you are saying...I could go for the middle ground of adding in an extra phaser shot or two.

That's all I want. Extra phaser shots. Keep it static, just make the shot flare up with phaser fire.

[RAMA]

Dream wrote:

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They've constant said the TNG remastering is not about adding in a ton of new HD CGI space battles. That would be too expensive to do for this kind of project.

Not sure how they are going to handle later DS9 seasons or the entire VOY series, which would required all that.

Duh, I'm not talking about space battles, they rarely had those in TNG, I'm talking about improving composition, perspective, motion and detail in FX shots. I LIKE much of the model recompositing they are doing, but there certainly ARE scenes that could be improved upon that they don't because of some silly notion that it will change the "art" of a technical side of film making, when it could better.

[Trekker4747]

Again... better to whom? The episode survived just fine now for DECADES with what's happened on screen. There's no need to add in extra phaser shots or torpedo bolts or whatever simply so weapons-philles can get a couple extra wanks in. That's not the point of the scene, or the episode. It would add nothing! So why change it? Because it looks cool? Not good enough.

[Dac]

It doesn't make or break the episode - but to me I've always felt that final shot just before the timeline corrects itself lacked all the kinetic energy that sequence had built up until that point - the shot just before it of Picard frantically pushing the buttons at tactical with fire all around him is far more energetic than the shot immediately after, of the Enterprise-D's "last stand".

The two split second phaser shots we got were laughable in the face of the Klingon's assault. The Enterprise still had power - why not show a barrage of phaser fire coming from all over the ship from its various emitters? I don't want a photon/quantum/tricobolt torpedo/device orgy with the camera doing summersaults in time to requiem for a dream - just more urgency in the rate/amount of phaser fire coming from the Enterprise. From what we've seen in the Trailer for season 3, it appears the battle at the end of Yesterdays Enterprise has been beefed up a bit - at least in the shot of the Enterprise firing phasers at a bird of prey in the trailer the phasers look and feel far more substantial their power than they did before.

EDIT: I a word.

[Reeborg]

Trekker4747 wrote:

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Again... better to whom? The episode survived just fine now for DECADES with what's happened on screen. There's no need to add in extra phaser shots or torpedo bolts or whatever simply so weapons-philles can get a couple extra wanks in. That's not the point of the scene, or the episode. It would add nothing! So why change it? Because it looks cool? Not good enough.

You don't get it. The reason is not "making it look cool" but "making the fight a bit believable and realistic". As it was done originally, it just felt unrealistic and even ridiculous. Why did the Enterprise not fire its weapons? Of course, it would not have a bit impact on the whole since it already is a brilliant episode. However, if any effect remastering would make sense and improve the visuals and the episode coherence, I really feel, IT SHOULD BE HERE.

[Timo]

The reason is not "making it look cool" but "making the fight a bit believable and realistic". As it was done originally, it just felt unrealistic and even ridiculous.

Yet it would feel even more so with the ships dancing a fast-paced ballet.

There's no benchmark for "realistic" when it comes to space battles. There are only artistic choices. Star Wars, BSG and Star Trek all made their own choices, and sticking to them is elemental to them maintaining their identity. Science fiction is a fundamentally visual thing: the writing, the characters and the acting performances are almost incidental compared with the sets, the props and the space battle VFX. To give up the TNG style would mean giving up Star Trek.

Timo Saloniemi

[bullethead]

Timo wrote:

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Yet it would feel even more so with the ships dancing a fast-paced ballet.

There's no benchmark for "realistic" when it comes to space battles. There are only artistic choices. Star Wars, BSG and Star Trek all made their own choices, and sticking to them is elemental to them maintaining their identity. Science fiction is a fundamentally visual thing: the writing, the characters and the acting performances are almost incidental compared with the sets, the props and the space battle VFX. To give up the TNG style would mean giving up Star Trek.

Making one battle a little more exciting (and in the process, making YE Starfleet a thousand times more competent) wouldn't be giving up the TNG style (having the Enterprise engage in nBSG Viper maneuvers would be), nor does giving up on the style of a show's action scenes means that you have to give up Star Trek. It just means that the show's way of conveying action wasn't effective all the time.