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Old December 9 2012, 04:23 PM   #121
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Santa Kang wrote: View Post
But why would Pressman name drop Starfleet Security and the Admiral heading it up if Security didn't have some sort of oversight in the matter?
I see no reason to trust anything Pressman says. Especially if he is, as I suspect, a member of Section 31.
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Old December 9 2012, 05:05 PM   #122
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Maybe it's just me, but I've always thought id there was such an organization it would be more probably called the United Federation Marine Corps (UFMC), rather than "Starfleet Marines".

I mean, go find a US Marine and try telling him he's a US Navy Marine. I'm sure you'll get a reaction. You might want to stand back a bit though.
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Old December 9 2012, 05:13 PM   #123
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Starfleet ground troops might indeed not call themselves Marines. If this is true, they could simply wear a unique uniform, and of course have ground-based ranks, but other than that, make absolutely no reference to any organization name other than just plain 'Starfleet'.

If you see a Starfleet officer wearing a uniform color you've never seen before, and using a rank like Major, Colonel or General, you can guess what they are. They don't really need to use the term 'Marines'. Their rank and uniform will tell you what they are doing.

It would surely fit Kirk's description of Starfleet as a 'combined service'.
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Old December 9 2012, 06:51 PM   #124
T'Girl
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Mysterion wrote: View Post
it would be more probably called the United Federation Marine Corps (UFMC), rather than "Starfleet Marines".
We don't specifically have a "United Federation Starfleet," so maybe not.







.

Last edited by T'Girl; December 9 2012 at 07:08 PM.
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Old December 10 2012, 03:44 AM   #125
Star Wolf
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Which brings us back to the myth of the US, Royal Marines, Airborne Ranger SAS Delta and how special he is and only he a a Foreign Legionnaire can actually fight on the ground.

I am of the camp that starship technology is so overwhelming. that the small numbers of recruits will always be special, should they be helmsmen or security. We just want to call them Delta SAS Marine Rangers because Security sounds like Mall Cop to our ears
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Old December 10 2012, 03:56 AM   #126
Sci
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
the fact of the matter is that the Federation is shown to possess all of the powers and to enact all of the powers of a sovereign state.
Alliances can't put their members under de facto martial law
On the world where the Federation government was only. Special case.
There is no evidence it was a special case.

When Betazed was invaded, we heard nothing of martial law being declared on that planet by the Federation President, which would have been an obvious action.
We have no data on this one way or the other. All we know is that Betazed fell to the Dominion, period; no other information about Federation policy towards Betazed was established.

nor declare war
While the Federation has engaged in warfare many times, neither the Federation Council, nor the President, has never been seen (or heard) to declared war.
I am at a loss as to determine how the Federation -- not its members; the Federation -- could negotiate, ratify, and enact a peace treaty if it cannot also declare war.

nor give up sovereign territory to a foreign state
The strip of territory between the Federation and the Cardassians was contested territory that the two groups were fight over possession of, it wasn't "sovereign territory" for either until after they agreed to divide it up.
It was sovereign Federation territory under Federation law; Cardassian claims did not affect the territory's status under Federation law until the Federation ratified a treaty yielding it to the Cardassian Union. An alliance cannot yield sovereign territory the way the Federation did.

nor enact domestic legislation
Oh God, are you talking about the speed limit thing again? Recently my parent's home owner association set a speed limit on a nearby lake.
Your parents' home owners association cannot enact a speed limit across the entire nation.


nor possess sovereign territory

The multiple territories of the various sovereign members of the Federation, plus additional territorial claims by the alliance.
1. Alliances cannot themselves make territorial claims.

2. Territory has been described on numerous occasions as "Federation space" -- such as Picard ordering an invading Borg ship to withdraw from Federation space in "The Best of Both Worlds." Not Earth space. Not Vulcan space. Federation space. It's Federation territory. Sovereign Federation territory -- as evidenced by the Federation's legal ability to yield it to foreign states.


nor possess their own militaries

Providing for a common defense would be one of the primary reasons for forming a alliance in the first place.
Alliances do not possess their own militaries; they coordinate member states' militaries. The Federation has its own military.

The Federation has been shown on numerous occasions to possess and enact all of the powers of a sovereign state.

ETA:

Also:

Alliances do not have constitutions that guarantee civil rights to all persons within their territory. The Federation does.
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Last edited by Sci; December 10 2012 at 05:07 AM.
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Old December 10 2012, 04:22 AM   #127
KamenRiderBlade
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

If you watched that episode of DS9 where Sisko was getting visions of a ancient Bajoran city and what it looked like while the visions were killing him slowly, there was a conversation with the visiting admiral that if the Bajoran's joined, there would be alot of work to do in integrating the Bajoran militia into Starfleet.

From what I can tell, every member race of the UFP basically gives up their own standing military and integrate it into Starfleet where Starfleet is responsible for providing defense to every member planet / colony / territory.

IMO, that is a reasonable method of doing things when you are part of a bigger group.
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Old December 10 2012, 04:49 AM   #128
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

^ When a new member world joins the Federation, most of its existing military is absorbed into Starfleet. Not all of it.
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Old December 10 2012, 05:02 AM   #129
Sci
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Merry Christmas wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post
it would be more probably called the United Federation Marine Corps (UFMC), rather than "Starfleet Marines".
We don't specifically have a "United Federation Starfleet," so maybe not.
From DSN: "Tribunal":

43 EXT. CARDASSIA PRIME - MATTE SHOT (OPTICAL)

This time on the screen is Makbar... as the trial is being shown to the populace... our angle is close enough this time to allow us to hear --

MAKBAR
The offender, Miles O'Brien, human,
officer of the Federation Starfleet,
has been found guilty of aiding and
abetting seditious acts against the
state. The sentence is death. Let
the trial begin.
O'BRIEN

Look, Constable... you don't know me
very well... But I... I...
(collects himself)
I've been in service to the
Federation... to Starfleet... all of
my adult life.
No one's ever
questioned my loyalty before. No
one... in my entire life has ever
had cause to ask: "Miles O'Brien,
are you a criminal?"
(beat)
I took an oath to defend the
Federation
and what it stands for.
I don't steal from them. I don't
lie to them. I'm no angel, but I
try to live every day as the best
human being I know how to be. I
need my little girl to look up at me
when she wakes up in the morning and
see a man she can respect.
(beat)
Until now, she always could.
From TNG: "The Best of Both Worlds, Part I:"

66 INT. BORG SHIP (MATTE SHOT)

The same massive chamber we saw on the Main Viewer
earlier... thousands of Borg lined up... as Picard
ENTERS. They speak with a thousand deafening voices:

BORG
Captain Jean-Luc Picard, you lead
the strongest ship of the
Federation Starfleet.
You speak
for your people.
From TNG: "The Most Toys:"

FAJO
Come now, don't be shy... as if
you could be shy...

Nothing from Data.

TOFF
A mannequin of some sort?

FAJO
It is not a mannequin. It is
Data... formerly Lieutenant
Commander Data of the Federation
Starfleet.
The only sentient
android in existence.
From DSN: "Rules of Engagement:"

CH'POK

When Worf is extradited, the
Federation will be forced to admit
that one of its officers committed
a massacre.
From VOY: "Dark Frontier, Part I:"

BORG [OC]: A vessel has been detected, unimatrix four two four grid zero three. Activate.

[Borg Sphere]

BORG [OC]: Vessel identified. Federation Starfleet, class two shuttlecraft. Three life-forms.
From Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home:

[U.S.S. Enterprise interrogation room]

FBI AGENT: Commander Pavel Chekov, Starfleet, United Federation of Planets. ...Right, Commander, is there anything you wanna tell us?

CHEKOV: Like what?

FBI AGENT: Like who you really are and what you're doing here and what these things here are.

CHEKOV: I am Pavel Chekov. Commander in Starfleet, United Federation of Planets, service number six five six, five eight two seven, D.
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: As you wish. ...The charges and specifications are. Conspiracy. Assault on Federation Officers. Theft of Federation Property, namely the Starship Enterprise. Sabotage of the U.S.S. Excelsior, Wilful destruction of Federation Property, specifically the aforementioned U.S.S. Enterprise. And finally, disobeying direct orders of the Starfleet Commander. ...Admiral Kirk, how do you plead?
From Star Trek: Insurrection:

Son'a ship turbolift]

PICARD: A coward without the moral courage to prevent an atrocity. ...You offend me.

GALLATIN: Is this how a Federation officer pleads for his life?
Bold added.

Sounds like it's the Federation's Starfleet to me.
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Old December 10 2012, 06:23 AM   #130
Darkwing
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Starfleet ground troops might indeed not call themselves Marines. If this is true, they could simply wear a unique uniform, and of course have ground-based ranks, but other than that, make absolutely no reference to any organization name other than just plain 'Starfleet'.

If you see a Starfleet officer wearing a uniform color you've never seen before, and using a rank like Major, Colonel or General, you can guess what they are. They don't really need to use the term 'Marines'. Their rank and uniform will tell you what they are doing.

It would surely fit Kirk's description of Starfleet as a 'combined service'.
That presumes their existence, while merely begging the question on what they're called. I prefer that they be acknowledged as existing, and think that they should be called as such, because it fits the way Roddenberry started, using the 18th C Royal Navy situation, with the modern navy structure to fit viewer's background knowledge.
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Old December 10 2012, 06:28 AM   #131
Darkwing
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

So, exactly what authority does this HOA think they have to enact a speed limit, and how would they enforce it? If I had a boat, I'd laugh at them.
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Old December 10 2012, 12:56 PM   #132
Longinus
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Sci wrote:
nor enact domestic legislation
EU makes laws that are binding to its members all the time and it is not a sovereign state...

As for negotiating the peace, obviously the Federation members (through the council or directly) have given the president the authority to negotiate on such a treaty. EU has representatives that negotiate on its behalf.

Last edited by Longinus; December 10 2012 at 01:17 PM.
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Old December 10 2012, 01:21 PM   #133
T'Girl
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Darkwing wrote: View Post
So, exactly what authority does this HOA think they have to enact a speed limit, and how would they enforce it? If I had a boat, I'd laugh at them.
It's a private lake, the HOA owns and controls the only boat launch, and home owners actually on the lake have all signed a covenance. A nearby HOA decided to ban fueled motors on their lake. A few years back a third HOA held a private boat (placed a lean?) until the violating owner from out of the area paid a two hundred dollar "usage fee."

Darkwing, it has to do with control. If the Federation isn't a state, but it's allied members can exercise control over a area of interstellar space, then they are in fact in control of that space.

If the Federation can't exercise control, then it doesn't make any different if they're a state or a alliance, they don't control it.

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Old December 10 2012, 01:47 PM   #134
Timo
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Sounds like it's the Federation's Starfleet to me.
Which seems to prove the point of Merry Christmas - it's never United Federation Starfleet.

Of course, it might well be United Federation of Planets Starfleet officially. But since that's a mouthful, nobody in his, her or its right mind will ever use the official form verbally, not even in the most formal situations. So we get things like "Federation Starfleet" or "United Starship" instead of the official "UFP Starfleet" or "UFP Starship". Indeed, the mysterious USS in front of ship names might well stand for UFP Starfleet Starship"...

they could simply wear a unique uniform, and of course have ground-based ranks
Why?

Starfleet engineers are a proud bunch of specialists, but they don't wear special uniforms or use special ranks. Ditto for Starfleet doctors. Starfleet security personnel blend in, too. Starfleet just isn't an organization that would use special uniforms, even if it is ready to change uniform patterns at the drop of the hat-they-dropped-in-the-2250s-for-good-already.

As for Starfleet infantry using Air Force ranks, why needlessly confuse matters? We never hear of such a thing happening in Star Trek.

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Old December 10 2012, 03:09 PM   #135
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Re: Starfleet Marine Corps

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ When a new member world joins the Federation, most of its existing military is absorbed into Starfleet. Not all of it.
That's how it plays out in the novels, but canonically speakinga planet's entire military being absorbed into Starfleet would explain why we never see any military service within the Federation other than Starfleet. Hell, aside from Vulcan having its own intelligence agency on TNG, we have every indication that Starfleet covers all security and defense of the Federation.
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