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Old July 10 2013, 05:19 AM   #286
JJohnson
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
Bunk bed and desk - something like this? An interesting idea (in a suitably TOSified design of course) and solves the problem of both a work area and a roommate (plus an explanation of the extraneous door)

An open bathroom & closet room is a good option - the (opaque) mesh could be the edge of a sliding door that closes off for privacy.

However, I am much more spartan in my view of Enterprise living conditions and see no reason why everyone should get a personal bathroom, or even their own room. Yes they'd have to do the 23rd century equivalent of hanging a tie on the doorhandle when having a "friend" over and as Mario_de_Monti said this is a lot like a college student - but time and again (especially in Season 1) we see the male crewmembers acting like college students, so what's the problem?

The idea of everyone having their own room is lovely, but the biggest obstacle IMO is that its already been done - by Franz Joseph. Following Roddenberry's instructions in "The Making of Star Trek", FJ allocated a single bed to each of the 430 crewmembers (those sharing still had two rooms, so the ratio of each person having their own room still applies) The result: is deck after deck of bedrooms. Now, this is not a slight against FJ and I do not wish to derail the thread, but the fact remains that giving each crewmember their own private bedroom eats up a huge percentage of the Enterprise's interior volume, with very little space left for work areas and machinery.
Hence: cram them in, I say!!!

I don't know if I ever mentioned any of them before, but I've come up with very similar theories as Robert_Comsol with regards to Uhura's cabin being one of the few with a bathroom, public washrooms being the norm (as per Kirk's stroll) and even corridors having different widths throughout the ship. As I mentioned above, I think my interpretation of wash areas is a little stricter, but in parts of the ship solely devoted to accomodation (or just low foot traffic) why would corridors need to be wider than 4 feet?
If you've ever seen Scotty's Guide to the Enterprise, even if it's not "canon" it's useful in seeing a good take on the idea of crew accomodation. There were dual quarters with a bathroom in the middle, shared by the crewmen. I don't see a problem with that, along with the small quarters, senior crew quarters, etc. that were in there.
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Old July 10 2013, 10:06 AM   #287
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

@ JJohnson

I will check out Shane's take on that. But in general, I feel bathrooms should be shared by as many crew members as possible to conserve space. According to the "Hornblower Effect" the captain and the senior officers, however, should have their own bathrooms.

@ publiusr

Unfortunately I'm not aware of these comics. Anything approved by Gene Roddenberry should be accomodated as long as there is no harm / contradiction to what we saw onscreen in TOS. I also feel that the different rooms from TAS have not been properly recorded. I've just finished watching the first TAS season and it's fun to discover these locations aboard the Enterprise.

Here’s the Thread Index I announced so you all can instantly access the various deck plans (and to help Andy and myself to record which areas still require corrections and/or upgrades).

This is not a chronological evolution of the thread, as it started with Engineering Deck 14 up to E-Deck 9 and then jumped to Main Deck 3. Blank areas in these drafts are conjectural and show areas not seen in TOS which are going to be explored at the earliest next convenience.

Primary Hull Cutaway (post # 169)

Will essentially remain the same but Deck 9 will be most definitely reduced in height to allow for more height of Decks 10 and 11. Of course, the assumed length of 1,080 feet (suggested by Phil Broad) is a problem as the over-imposed Bridge studio set would suggest that 974 feet would make a better match.

In general this would reduce all dimensions to 90% (corridor height only 2.5 meters) and be a close call for the port turbo lift on Deck 7 Spock exited in “The Naked Time” (apparently no step or ramp down). Notice: “Briefing Lounge” should be “Conference Lounge” / “Briefing Room 1” because in WNM we saw both as different locations (obviously the original Briefing Lounge from “The Cage” had been converted into a recreation lounge but kept its original name. Lt. Kelso addressed it as “Briefing Lounge”!).

Bridge turboshaft is obsolete. Though probably intended by Matt Jefferies according to the optional turbo lift position on the Season One studio set plans (near the end of the Jefferies Tube corridor), there is no visual evidence in the series that we ever saw that turbo lift or shaft.

Main Decks 3 and 4 (post # 177)

Main Deck 3 is close to final, but still needs to be matched with possible access routes Kirk and Odona took in “The Mark of Gideon” according to the revised Deck 5 plan.
Alternately, I’m tempted to illustrate an option that accommodates Pike’s Cabin and the Briefing Lounge (though at the expense of the accuracy of the Deck 3 corridor seen in “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield”).

Main Deck 4 is mostly done. Janice’s cabin 3F 125 “was” Kirk’s cabin at Stardate 1533.6, the corridor at 12 o’clock has to feature a stair she (apparently) took to descend to Deck 5 between “3F” and “3C” there. “Briefing room” next to her cabin has to become the “new” Recreation Room 6(converting the one on Deck 3 into Rec Room 7 sometime before MG).
The depth of RR 6 is not revealed! Towards the bow we have a strange repetition of the same area (Kirk looks that way!), grated ladder has to connect to inner corridor on Deck 5 passed at the beginning of “Journey to Babel”.

Lokai’s and Bele’s obstacle course at 3 o’clock needs to be refined. No turbo lift there, these characters must have gone through some kind of maze adjacent to the “Crewman’s Lounge”. Maybe Pike’s Cabin was the enigmatic “6F” equally present on both officers quarters direction signs? Or it’s the direction of transporter room 6 (forward) that would be located on the port side of Deck 6, according to the direction sign in “Turnabout Intruder” outside of Briefing Room2? Side corridors and stairs definitely need to be aligned with (most) corridors on Deck 5 below.

Main Deck 5 (post # 213)

is close to final. Inner corridor at 12 o’clock needs to be refined to accommodate Season One Medical Ward 4 featured in “The Naked Time”, “Space Seed” and others.
“The Naked Time” circular corridor close to sickbay and the “Space Seed” corridor(next to Khan’s Cabin) shared the same turbolift. The turbo lift was deconstructed and relocated to the door opposite the MW 4 exam door (“Scotty’s office”) prior to “Journey to Babel” (“side turbo shaft”, typical Season Two turbo lift location).

Alternately, the whole turbo lift access at this point was removed and our triumvirate walked (rather than to use the turbo lift at “3F”) for reasons that are unknown to us (turbo lift breakdown of overweight alien ambassadors? Kirk, Spock and McCoy eager to show presence in the overcrowded corridors?).

At 6 o’clock turbo lift used by Spock and Dr. Jones, Lawrence Marvick and Kirk with security detail and the corresponding corridor featured in “Is There In Truth No Beauty?” to be illustrated!

Main Deck 6 (post # 236)

is close to final. Outer corridor (astern) near 6 o’clock turbo lift is Season One corridor featured in the last scene of “Balance of Terror” to be illustrated. Corridor illustration close to the upper level of the Engineering Control Room is not compatible with footage from “The Corbomite Maneuver” as Kirk is obviously passing “Briefing Room 2”(corridor scene from “Court-Martial” may have to be relocated to Deck 8).
Would put medical exam room from “The Corbomite Maneuver” at 10 o’clock where there is currently still a cabin. Possibly Kirk’s turbo lift ride may not really be feasible (because of the early production date?). Would reduce LS & AG section in size, accessible only via ladder from below.

Extension of port side turbo shaft could end/connect to the turbo lift near Transporter Room 6(F) featured in “This Side of Paradise” and “Elaan of Troyius”. Turbo lift car depot at 12 o’clock near Transporter Room 3 (maintenance one deck lower).

Main Deck 7 (post # 280)

is almost final. Service corridors to Computer Core may be reduced to narrower conduits that do separate the medical wards from one another (and allow for more space next to the fifth or sixth bed facing the core).
The visual footage from the TAS episode “Once Upon a Planet” is difficult to rationalize. The basic cel outside the “Computer Bay” is a reuse of the one from the Engineering Core. Apparently there is an air-conditioning type crawlway from the (unseen) console to the right (of the screencap) that leads to a rectangular inner arrangement of the Computer Core / Bay.

Engineering Deck 8 (post # 123)

still has to show the Auxiliary Control Room at the bow. Recreation Room on the port side is apparently the same as in “And The Children Shall Lead” and “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield” but cannot be Recreation Room 6 seen in “The Mark of Gideon”. The overscan of a 4:3 tube TV set would have equally cut off the “6” in both episodes. If you prefer it didn’t, then the engineering hull has at least 6 recreation rooms, otherwise it may had just one and there’s a briefing room probably on the starboard side.

The back wall of room appears parallel to the exterior hull as suggested by this shot, the shot with Spock could suggest he’s heading for the Auxiliary Control Room and the doorframe we see is actually a port side access that will lead clockwise to the starboard part of the ACR that’s separated by a grate from the master control table at the center.

The circular corridor towards the bow may be straightened to look more credible “in-universe” and to have a rectangular recreation room on the port and briefing room on the starboard side.

Engineering Deck 9 (post # 122)

“Lazarus’ Corridor” may be straightened towards the bow, too. Since “And The Children Shall Lead” placed a new turbo shaft there on the deck above, I’m inclined to have Kirk, Spock and Scotty make a (straight) run to this turbo lift (taking them to the nearest transporter room) to eject the Nomad probe back into space in “The Changeling”.

I’m still undecided what to make of the TAS footage and dialogue from “The Terratin Incident”. According to the actual dialogue we are looking at the “main warp engine circuits” although it appears that this is rather a dilithium crystal storage than an interior working component of the dilithium crystal converter assembly, because there is apparently no ray shielding or the like (it rather looks like the crystals are on display for the engineers to take readings and to notice possible visual changes). The surrounding room elements - http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...cident_050.JPG
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...cident_052.JPG
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...cident_053.JPG
are equally interesting and I probably have to accommodate these in the bow of Deck 10 (because the room seems to extend to the deck above).

Engineering Deck 10 (post # 113)

The extra two transporter rooms at the bow will have to go (Albertese is going to like that a lot…). Again, the “And The Children Shall Lead” turbo lift on Deck 8 looks more and more like a blessing in disguise.
The wall we saw behind the Engineering Core now appears to have characteristics of a “partition wall” behind which we’d find this turbo lift. However, the essential horseshoe layout of the (bigger) room will stay intact.

The Y-shaped fusion reactor / “battery” corridor (was “energizer corridor) will be turned 180° and become shorter (unless I relocate the scene from “The Ultimate Computer” and engineering circuit bay G-121 and the Jefferies Tube close to the port or starboard nacelle pylon….)

Engineering Deck 11 (post # 109)

“Energizers” are now fusion reactors and/or “batteries”. Bow starboard corridor looks weird.

Engineering Deck 12 (post # 74-75)

EPS power relay corridor has to be removed (is on Deck 10) as well as the Karidians’ cabin (saucer location instead).

Engineering Deck 13 (post # 126)

The Hearing Room (instead of the erroneous “Court Room”) would probably look better parallel to the ship’s exterior, similar to the recreation and briefing room on E-Deck 8. I’m having second thoughts about the layout of the detention section. The existence of a “science library” here (like previously on Deck 7 near the medical labs) strongly suggests the presence of research labs, IMHO.

I think the bow would be an ideal place to accommodate the rectangular sickbay lab, the rectangular bedroom, and the medical supply storage cabinet separating the two, seen in TAS’ “The Survivor”. Same applies for the multipurpose tank from “The Ambergris Element”.
The panel regulators suggest that the tank can be filled with liquids or atmospheres of all kind. I believe this would be a great facility to examine alien life forms from non-M-Class planets (brought by shuttle or transporter beam) which require an artificial atmosphere. The Zoology Lab of the Llife Sciences Department will probably be in the vicinity. The tank could also serve as a detention cell for alien life forms requiring a different atmosphere.

Engineering Deck 14 (post # 71-72)

is essentially final, except – of course – for the blank and unseen areas. In “The Enemy Within” the mission was “specimen-gathering on Alpha 177”. It stands to reason that the accommodation of such specimen is in close proximity, either next to the “vault” or on E-Deck 13 near the Zoology Lab.

Although I located an alternate location for the transporter room from WNM on Main Deck 6, I would still have to wonder where they put the flight recorder of the SS Valiant after they left the room. Seems like a historic object I'd examine and store in the E-Deck 14 vicinity.

Bob

P.S. I noticed that in "Is There In Truth No Beauty?" Dr. Jones' cabin starts with "4F". This cabin is closest to Transporter Room 4 on Deck 6, thus it appears that the cabin door signs do start with the indication of the nearest transporter room for evacuation purposes.

P.P.S.
Couldn't help but to do some preliminary work on Deck 8. I noticed that Uhura's bathroom ("Elaan of Troyius") would actually have a panoramic window on Deck 8 next to the "Inspection Door Vent Systems Connections". This would really explain why hers was the best cabin available aboard the ship, IMHO.

I'm just wondering what "vent systems" could mean for a starship that travels through the vacuum of space. I presume this is a maintenance hatch once the ship has docked at a larger facility to take in fresh air and oxygen. Environmental Engineering on Deck 6 would be rather close and therefore seems to be at an adjacent and correct location.
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; July 10 2013 at 02:20 PM.
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Old July 11 2013, 06:04 PM   #288
Praetor
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

I hope to have something more constructive and substantial to say later, but I have to go ahead and commend the work being done here and the unique approach being taken. Once I got over my initial gag reflex over curved corridors in the secondary hull, it proved a fascinating read. (And I had no such issues with the primary hull layouts, of course.)

Well done.
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Old July 15 2013, 11:05 AM   #289
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

@ Praetor

Thank you! Yes, the circular corridor in the engineering hull has become notorious for provoking "gag reflexes" but if you were to illustrate the circular corridor segements from each episode / different E-deck on a transparent sheet of paper and then overlap all those sheets, you'd inevitably see a "whole" circular corridor.

I realized another problem I hadn't paid proper attention to: In "The Ultimate Computer" Kirk, Spock and McCoy leave Dr. Daystrom in a bedroom section (two beds at least), enter a turbo lift opposite the (unseen) exam room which immediately starts to move counter-clockwise horizontally before going into a vertical / diagonal ascent to carry them to the Bridge.

Looks like the only candidate for this turbo lift would be the outer corridor on Deck 6 at the 2 o'clock position. Interestingly, this would also suggest turbo shafts that keep their distance to the transporter chambers and should therefore all be on Deck 6 (and not partially on Deck 7 as currently illustrated. Great, more lab space ).

It also helps to resolve a problem I had been struggling with prior to the drafts of Decks 5 through 7: If there is a turbo shaft behind the outer corridor on Deck 6 at 2 o'clock, there is no reason not to assume that it extends clockwise to the central stern-bow axis at 3 o'clock where we could have a turbo shaft taking passengers to the bow of the saucer (all it essentially does is take a detour around Environmental Engineering).

Bob

P.S. I forgot, here is a parallel thread dealing with turbo lift "walk around" areas illustrated in the lastest deck plan drafts for the saucer hull.
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Old July 15 2013, 11:43 PM   #290
publiusr
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Well it doesn't have to be more lab space, although the voids left by having studio-relevant positions allow for some unusual shaped rooms of your own design. Maybe water storage wrapping around the engineering hull core--like some of the rad shelters for NASA deep space craft that are to be found in the core of real ships on the drawing board.
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Old July 16 2013, 04:28 PM   #291
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

publiusr wrote: View Post
Maybe water storage wrapping around the engineering hull core--like some of the rad shelters for NASA deep space craft that are to be found in the core of real ships on the drawing board.
That's exactly the concept they might have had in mind for these circular lounges (e,g, Conference Lounge and "Briefing Lounge" in "Where No Man Has Gone Before") and locations on Decks 4 through 6 of the saucer deck plan drafts.

Indeed, the circular surroundings of the Engineering Core could have a similar function for personnel working in this hull during an emergency.

Bob
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Old July 30 2013, 02:11 PM   #292
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Just a quick update as a result of the preliminary work for Deck 8.

The Herbarium from "Is There in Truth No Beauty?" should go to the center of Deck 5 assuming it is still connected to the "Life Sciences Department Botanical Section" featured in "The Man Trap".
Simply put the "back door" leads straight to the rectangular passage briefly seen in TB and to the circular Herbarium (apparently Kirk wanted to take Dr. Jones to the more exotic plants).
I should also add that Matt Jefferies envisioned the circular Herbarium room to connect to a more rectangular section containing the carnivorous plants.

Also, the corridor outside has the same properties as in the Deck 5 scene with the Section 3 security report (i.e. extra door between briefing room and cabin set, "Astro-Medicine Ward 4" door sign on briefing room set).

The major reason the botanical section cannot possibly be on Deck 8 comes from this shot in "The Man Trap". As discussed earlier, Deck 8 is way to narrow to accomodate such a long corridor.

As a result, Uhura's cabin will be on Deck 5 (vis-a-vis another botanical section of the life sciences department) and the central overhead support beams of both the Herbarium (Deck 5) and the "Solarium" / Season 3 Rec Room (Deck 8) can be conveniently accomodated in the center of the saucer.

Bob
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Old August 14 2013, 07:24 PM   #293
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

I have re-read this thread a total of three times now, trying to get my full thoughts to coalesce into something that will resemble coherency. My inability to do so is either a compliment to Robert Comsol and company's thoroughness, or an insult to my mental faculties.

I wanted to briefly discuss methodology. My first question relates to TMoSt and how you are using it. Your OP states some facts gleaned from there, and I take it you have reviewed the text presented therein somewhat thoroughly. Is it your intent to use this as your barometer for your overall project? If so, do you factor the Jefferies cross section of the Enterprise into the equation - and if so, how? Further, I'm curious what specifically prompted you to pick the 1080' feet figure instead of the more generally accepted 947'?



Second, I admire that you are taking everything we've seen on the show and trying to adhere as closely to that as possible, using visual evidence of corridors to try to place rooms. I certainly do not disagree with this effort. However, I want to ensure that the correct amount of salt is applied in this venture. That is, we know fairly conclusively that the curved corridor was a conceit to make the ship seem bigger than it was. We also know that it was considered advantageous since it corresponded with the curve of the saucer. However, I am not certain how much forethought placed in their staging of scenes, nor how much forethought was placed in the assignment of door numbers.

That said, mine any diamonds from the rough that you can - just remember that if something doesn't work out, it is not unreasonable to chalk something up to a production inconsistency.

I've mostly assumed that you are doing this without thinking too much of anything introduced from TNG or other series as far as the way technology works - in one post, I believe you (quite correctly) pointed out that the TOS tech could be quite different than anything in a previous era or later era. I wholly agree with this. I'm curious, though, how much thought you have given to trying to reconcile this with the previous or later series? Decks with inconsistent heights, for example, might be considered controversial by 24th century standards.

Using the yellow circular hatch as a way to allow curved corridors makes sense. I feel that your second revisions of the engineering hull are closer to what I expected from this methodology - curved corridors, yes, but not overabundantly so. I think they key here is balancing out onscreen interpretation with what would actually make sense, which I think you are doing so far. The one thing I might suggest we consider more is how would the ship actually be laid out? Do designers place the turbolifts and corridors first, or the rooms, and put the corridors in between? I think there's a happy medium to be found.

When it comes time to take the project back up, I think it would be logical to take all the WIPs so far and compare them, and perhaps derive a horizontal cross section from them. I'm concerned that you might get so stuck on trying to make the sets fit the available area that we might find they don't stack properly.

I wanted to touch briefly on the topic of the warp drive as well. Somehow, the Enterprise combines matter and antimatter, along with dilithium crystals, to make power. And the engine pods somehow warp space and move the ship. From TOS, we do know this. But what we don't know is exactly how it works. We have the "matter/antimatter integrator" in the floor of engineering in season two onward, which was maybe there all along, albeit another room. We have the energizer structures there all along. We have the dilithium room in "The Alternative Factor" which I'll get to in a minute. And we have the cathedral. Oh, and lest we not forget the crawlway Scotty used, in "That Which Survives" I think. That's pretty much all TOS tells us.

It's my assertion that it was initially thought that the "antimatter pods" were the warp nacelles, and were self-contained, aircraft-style engines. I think this changed as the series went on, and a more hands-on approach was needed. Plot seemed to necessitate the addition of the integrator, which presumable, does just that - uses dilithium to "integrate" matter and antimatter, resulting in power. Somehow, this probably goes through the cathedral and ends up in the engines. The energizers presumably steal power from the main reactor to power everything else.

I have yet to see a truly satisfactory answer for the "re-amplification" room in "The Alternative Factor." I had always assumed the Enterprise usually carried many backup crystals (lacking in "WNMHGB" and "Mudd's Women," to be sure) which had to be "rested" (but not recrystalized per TVH) through some arcane process.

Keep up the good work. I look forward to following this thread when you pick the job back up after your hiatus.
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Old August 16 2013, 04:19 PM   #294
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Praetor wrote: View Post
I have re-read this thread a total of three times now, trying to get my full thoughts to coalesce into something that will resemble coherency. My inability to do so is either a compliment to Robert Comsol and company's thoroughness, or an insult to my mental faculties.
Possibly the constant and inevitable detail revisions I apply and don’t have the time to illustrate in a graphic and concise manner, so I’m most likely the one to be blamed.

I’m grateful that you take the time to get into the details and hopefully encourage others to do so, too. I really miss the feedback of the BBS veterans (“the old ones”) that came before me with their TOS WIP Enterprise threads. Some of their thoughts reflect in my work while other ideas, I’d like to think, could be stuff for interesting discussions.

Praetor wrote: View Post
I wanted to briefly discuss methodology. My first question relates to TMoSt and how you are using it. Your OP states some facts gleaned from there, and I take it you have reviewed the text presented therein somewhat thoroughly.
Yes

Praetor wrote: View Post
Is it your intent to use this as your barometer for your overall project? If so, do you factor the Jefferies cross section of the Enterprise into the equation - and if so, how? Further, I'm curious what specifically prompted you to pick the 1080' feet figure instead of the more generally accepted 947'?
Yes, The Making of Star Trek is the barometer unless altered and/or revised by contradicting (first grade canon) TOS onscreen information.

The Jefferies’ cross section / JCS (illustration above):

I’ve mentioned before that I believe there is sufficient evidence that the ship’s internal description was an early concept for one of the pilot film versions (still including a physical Main Deck 2). The text description mentions 11 main decks and 16 engineering decks.

Judging by the sphere at the nacelles’ end, the JCS has to have been drawn after the 11-footer VFX model had been altered for the regular series, thus it cannot come from the “pilot film stage” of production. Notice that Main Deck 2 appears to have been flattened by the lowering of the bridge module!

Where it gets confusing are the visible decks in the JCS. There are only 9 main decks (including the flattened # 2) and only 15 engineering decks (looks like one deck level may have been removed to allow for one taller engineering deck).
I assume Jefferies tried to fix the original, early aforementioned description by taking the studio set deck heights into account, thus the 11 decks were reduced to 9.

Gene L. Coon may not have been aware of this and still went with the old description, therefore Decks 10 and 11 took hits in “Errand of Mercy”. I think this settled the inconsistency and frankly, I feel that this was a good thing as we will (hopefully) see.

In the JCS we see the three vertical main lines (usually mistaken for turbo shafts, IMHO) and a hint of the vertical engineering core in the engineering hull, but not necessarily an exact reproduction to be taken literally (as various other details in the JCS).

The whole deck plan idea started with my intention to illustrate Kirk’s (provisional) cabin on Engineering Deck 12 in “Mudd’s Women”. I realized I couldn’t fit the circular studio set corridor there unless I tweaked it.
To keep this at the absolute minimum I realized I’d have to go for a larger figure of the ship’s overall length. For various reasons – some also discussed in previous TOS Enterprise threads – I went for the 1,080 feet O.L. figure.

I think this one works best as it enables 16 engineering decks with a height often exceeding 9’, most of the main decks to be 9’ tall, the outer ring cabins on Main Deck 5, to have Spock’s turbo lift on Main Deck 7 in “The Naked Time” without further tweaking these corridors, too (thank heavens for that! ), and last but not least a bigger shuttlebay (I assume its VFX footage to have been shot in “X-ray-vision” to give us a better overall idea of this area by removing the stern wall with the part of the U-shaped observation corridor we didn’t see).

Most unfortunately there is a price tag, and that is the inability to properly align the command bridge, so we’d have to assume it to be somewhat larger than it actually was.
IIRC an O.L. of 987’ would enable a perfect match, and this was probably what Matt Jefferies used as a scale reference to come up with the “947 feet” figure (and possibly resulted in him reducing the original 11 decks to only 9 in his JCS).
My approach to apply “Occam’s Razor” is that “the concept that answers more questions than raising new ones, is probably the closest one to the truth”. YMMV, of course.

Praetor wrote: View Post
We know fairly conclusively that the curved corridor was a conceit to make the ship seem bigger than it was. We also know that it was considered advantageous since it corresponded with the curve of the saucer. However, I am not certain how much forethought placed in their staging of scenes, nor how much forethought was placed in the assignment of door numbers.
I’m not sure. The outer cabin ring on Main Deck 5 (revised version!) is a very close call, but still suggests that the radius of the inner corridor (studio set) has the accurate dimensions.
Regarding the door signs (that will conflict in my deck plan drafts) I agree that we need a salt shaker here.
I’m doing my best to have these make sense as much as that may be possible (i.e. these also have an influence on the overall layout, so it’s not just about having a credible turbo lift network and character movements that make sense.)

Praetor wrote: View Post
That said, mine any diamonds from the rough that you can - just remember that if something doesn't work out, it is not unreasonable to chalk something up to a production inconsistency.
That definitely applies to the side door of Kirk’s cabin aboard the ISS Enterprise in the mirror universe which should open to a corridor but instead reveals an extra room for Marla to change clothes. Good thing, then, I’m not attempting to produce deck plans of that ship.

Praetor wrote: View Post
I've mostly assumed that you are doing this without thinking too much of anything introduced from TNG or other series as far as the way technology works - in one post, I believe you (quite correctly) pointed out that the TOS tech could be quite different than anything in a previous era or later era. I wholly agree with this. I'm curious, though, how much thought you have given to trying to reconcile this with the previous or later series? Decks with inconsistent heights, for example, might be considered controversial by 24th century standards.
Yes, in TAS it’s the Engineering Core, in TMP (and TWOK) the Intermix Chamber Coil and in TNG and beyond the Warp Core. I try not to mix lingo from the different Trek incarnations and try to only seek inspiration from post-TOS incarnations where TOS (or TAS) fails to provide the necessary answers.

Nevertheless I’m trying to accomodate TOS Enterprise rooms and corridors from TAS, DS9 and ENT as long as these do not contradict genuine TOS footage or layout suggestions.

Praetor wrote: View Post
Using the yellow circular hatch as a way to allow curved corridors makes sense. I feel that your second revisions of the engineering hull are closer to what I expected from this methodology - curved corridors, yes, but not overabundantly so. I think they key here is balancing out onscreen interpretation with what would actually make sense, which I think you are doing so far. The one thing I might suggest we consider more is how would the ship actually be laid out? Do designers place the turbolifts and corridors first, or the rooms, and put the corridors in between? I think there's a happy medium to be found.
Thank you very much! First and foremost it should be an accurate reproduction of what we saw onscreen because this is the essential reference everyone can relate to. Next, IMHO, the turbo lift network should be accurate, efficient and believable. Eventually the whole layout should look good, which seems (no offense) what you’re aiming at.

The only excuse I’m able to offer is that I don’t pretend to know the intricate details of 23rd Century starship engineering. The circular arrangement inside the engineering hull might be a design feature improving warp drive performance, relieve structural pressure or something along these lines. The remaining challenge will remain to keep the (onscreen) circular corridors but arrange the surrounding areas in a manner that the whole ensemble will look and feel much better than it currently does.

Praetor wrote: View Post
When it comes time to take the project back up, I think it would be logical to take all the WIPs so far and compare them, and perhaps derive a horizontal cross section from them. I'm concerned that you might get so stuck on trying to make the sets fit the available area that we might find they don't stack properly.
Thus far I hope I visited all the other WIP threads, current and closed. There are items I wholeheartedly agree with my esteemed colleagues, there are others where I digress.
While due to my lack of appropriate computer skills I’m still unable to present three-dimensional renderings, I approach the plans with what I hope to be an appropriate awareness of three-dimensionality, nevertheless (e.g. room heights of Engineering Control Room in contrast to room height of Impulse Engine Room).

Praetor wrote: View Post
I wanted to touch briefly on the topic of the warp drive as well. Somehow, the Enterprise combines matter and antimatter, along with dilithium crystals, to make power. And the engine pods somehow warp space and move the ship. From TOS, we do know this. But what we don't know is exactly how it works. We have the "matter/antimatter integrator" in the floor of engineering in season two onward, which was maybe there all along, albeit another room. We have the energizer structures there all along. We have the dilithium room in "The Alternative Factor" which I'll get to in a minute. And we have the cathedral. Oh, and lest we not forget the crawlway Scotty used, in "That Which Survives" I think. That's pretty much all TOS tells us.
Its because of issues like this I created parallel threads to hopefully discuss these subjects to get a better “understanding” in the process.

The confusion you expressed earlier is something I accept full responsibility for, because unless I was done with the Main Deck 7 draft, I hadn’t thought that the “cathedrals” are most likely the enigmatic “energizers” referred to in “The Doomsday Machine”.

The “matter/antimatter integrator” (what a euphemism considering nothing is integrated but everything annihilated instead ) is a can of worms, but I assume it’s not where you believe it is.
The dialogue in “That Which Survives” is obscure at best and conflicting at worst. Nevertheless, blssdwlf and I seem to agree that it has to be at a location where the “jettison” scenario is feasible, and have accordingly concluded that it has to align with one of the bottom hatches of the engineering hull.
My take on it is that it is part of the Engineering Core (a predecessor of TMP’s intermix chamber coil) which essentially looks like a warp engine but, of course, is missing the warp coil elements.

Praetor wrote: View Post
It's my assertion that it was initially thought that the "antimatter pods" were the warp nacelles, and were self-contained, aircraft-style engines. I think this changed as the series went on, and a more hands-on approach was needed. Plot seemed to necessitate the addition of the integrator, which presumable, does just that - uses dilithium to "integrate" matter and antimatter, resulting in power. Somehow, this probably goes through the cathedral and ends up in the engines. The energizers presumably steal power from the main reactor to power everything else.
I think dilithium crystals (my treatise “studying” possible energy amplifying characteristics) do more than that. Here’s my assertion:

“batteries” > dilithium crystals > ignite fusion reactors > dilithium crystals > ignite matter-antimatter reactors > dilithium crystals > boost power for warp drive. The cathedrals / energizers regulate and distribute the available energy, failure of these and you are stuck with battery and/or fusion power only (“The Doomsday Machine”).
Injection of fusion plasma into the matter-antimatter reaction product stream influences warp drive performance (“intermix formula”).
I think that’s in a nutshell what I came up with in trying to get a better idea how the energy plasma tubework inside could or should look like.

Praetor wrote: View Post
I have yet to see a truly satisfactory answer for the "re-amplification" room in "The Alternative Factor." I had always assumed the Enterprise usually carried many backup crystals (lacking in "WNMHGB" and "Mudd's Women," to be sure) which had to be "rested" (but not recrystalized per TVH) through some arcane process.
Most definitely not re-crystallized as in ST IV through gamma radiation, I absolutely agree.

I think “re-amplification” is a strong hint that the crystals can loose their amplification properties and therefore have to be regenerated by some exotic process to regain their original and “full crystal [amplification] power”. While the warp engines occasionally needed to be “re-energized” (i.e. recharged) I don’t think that’s necessarily the case with the crystals where “draining” these, IMO, does not imply “discharge” but instead “degradation of amplification properties”.

Thanks for your feedback, I appreciate that a lot. I intend to get on with the deck drafts at the earliest next opportunity, stay tuned.

Bob
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Old August 16 2013, 08:57 PM   #295
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The Making of Star Trek is the barometer unless altered and/or revised by contradicting (first grade canon) TOS onscreen information.
Splendid. I think, then, that you're starting off with the right approach.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The Jefferies’ cross section / JCS (illustration above):

I’ve mentioned before that I believe there is sufficient evidence that the ship’s internal description was an early concept for one of the pilot film versions (still including a physical Main Deck 2). The text description mentions 11 main decks and 16 engineering decks.
To be clear, do you mean you think the drawing reflects a smaller Enterprise, the kind that would've had 203 crew members? In turn, the text version represents the "real" size of the Enterprise settled on after the pilots but still fairly early on in production?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Judging by the sphere at the nacelles’ end, the JCS has to have been drawn after the 11-footer VFX model had been altered for the regular series, thus it cannot come from the “pilot film stage” of production. Notice that Main Deck 2 appears to have been flattened by the lowering of the bridge module!
Regarding the "lowering" of the bridge module, here's where I apply the salt. We "know" to an extent that this was done to upsize the ship from a 203 crew vessel to a 430 crew vessel. I choose to, frankly, ignore the dome alteration for this reason. The bridge previously sat higher in a different dome, if you want, but I don't consider it to have any bearing on deck two.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Where it gets confusing are the visible decks in the JCS. There are only 9 main decks (including the flattened # 2) and only 15 engineering decks (looks like one deck level may have been removed to allow for one taller engineering deck). I assume Jefferies tried to fix the original, early aforementioned description by taking the studio set deck heights into account, thus the 11 decks were reduced to 9.
I suppose, also, it matters whether the sensor platforms are "decks." Reading this, it sounds like you think that the bridge dome is the reason why there were more decks, and Jefferies revised this number downward when the bridge dome was enshrinkened? Jefferies' Phase II Enterprise cross section may bear scrutiny here, as it was mostly intended to represent the same ship, albeit with changed engine pods and bridge. [/quote]

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
In the JCS we see the three vertical main lines (usually mistaken for turbo shafts, IMHO) and a hint of the vertical engineering core in the engineering hull, but not necessarily an exact reproduction to be taken literally (as various other details in the JCS).

The whole deck plan idea started with my intention to illustrate Kirk’s (provisional) cabin on Engineering Deck 12 in “Mudd’s Women”. I realized I couldn’t fit the circular studio set corridor there unless I tweaked it.
To keep this at the absolute minimum I realized I’d have to go for a larger figure of the ship’s overall length. For various reasons – some also discussed in previous TOS Enterprise threads – I went for the 1,080 feet O.L. figure.

Most unfortunately there is a price tag, and that is the inability to properly align the command bridge, so we’d have to assume it to be somewhat larger than it actually was.
IIRC an O.L. of 987’ would enable a perfect match, and this was probably what Matt Jefferies used as a scale reference to come up with the “947 feet” figure (and possibly resulted in him reducing the original 11 decks to only 9 in his JCS).
My approach to apply “Occam’s Razor” is that “the concept that answers more questions than raising new ones, is probably the closest one to the truth”. YMMV, of course.
Right - it definitely started as general scribblings of where things were, not necessarily final placements. And I can see the logic of your scaling choice.

Just to throw a monkey wrench in, this was something put together, I believe, by aridas sofia many years ago that makes too much sense:



Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Regarding the door signs (that will conflict in my deck plan drafts) I agree that we need a salt shaker here.

I’m doing my best to have these make sense as much as that may be possible (i.e. these also have an influence on the overall layout, so it’s not just about having a credible turbo lift network and character movements that make sense.)
Ah, ok. My only worry was that you had found yourself beholden to them - and I think you should not.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Yes, in TAS it’s the Engineering Core, in TMP (and TWOK) the Intermix Chamber Coil and in TNG and beyond the Warp Core. I try not to mix lingo from the different Trek incarnations and try to only seek inspiration from post-TOS incarnations where TOS (or TAS) fails to provide the necessary answers.

Nevertheless I’m trying to accomodate TOS Enterprise rooms and corridors from TAS, DS9 and ENT as long as these do not contradict genuine TOS footage or layout suggestions.
Quite commendable - but again, I'd urge you to not feel too beholden to these "other" rooms, especially if you're going for a true Jefferies-level vision.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The only excuse I’m able to offer is that I don’t pretend to know the intricate details of 23rd Century starship engineering. The circular arrangement inside the engineering hull might be a design feature improving warp drive performance, relieve structural pressure or something along these lines. The remaining challenge will remain to keep the (onscreen) circular corridors but arrange the surrounding areas in a manner that the whole ensemble will look and feel much better than it currently does.
I trust you on that. I guess my only fear is that we end up with something that just doesn't make sense, in simply trying to bend over backwards to accommodate running scenes done in a "trick" set.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The confusion you expressed earlier is something I accept full responsibility for, because unless I was done with the Main Deck 7 draft, I hadn’t thought that the “cathedrals” are most likely the enigmatic “energizers” referred to in “The Doomsday Machine”.
Regarding the cathedrals, I'd also urge you to approach them consistently. That is, if you decide they are forced perspective or not, use them that way in all locations they appear. I have seen others not do so, and in my opinion it is selective thinking at best.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The “matter/antimatter integrator” (what a euphemism considering nothing is integrated but everything annihilated instead ) is a can of worms, but I assume it’s not where you believe it is.

The dialogue in “That Which Survives” is obscure at best and conflicting at worst. Nevertheless, blssdwlf and I seem to agree that it has to be at a location where the “jettison” scenario is feasible, and have accordingly concluded that it has to align with one of the bottom hatches of the engineering hull.

My take on it is that it is part of the Engineering Core (a predecessor of TMP’s intermix chamber coil) which essentially looks like a warp engine but, of course, is missing the warp coil elements.
An interesting and unique take, to be sure, but not one without merit. Surely there must be some form of ejectable component for the crew's safety, even if it's just a main chamber and fuel cells.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I think dilithium crystals (my treatise “studying” possible energy amplifying characteristics) do more than that. Here’s my assertion:

“batteries” > dilithium crystals > ignite fusion reactors > dilithium crystals > ignite matter-antimatter reactors > dilithium crystals > boost power for warp drive. The cathedrals / energizers regulate and distribute the available energy, failure of these and you are stuck with battery and/or fusion power only (“The Doomsday Machine”).
Injection of fusion plasma into the matter-antimatter reaction product stream influences warp drive performance (“intermix formula”).

I think that’s in a nutshell what I came up with in trying to get a better idea how the energy plasma tubework inside could or should look like.
Another unconventional take (which I like as a general rule) but one that again has some interesting merit, particularly in thinking that perhaps that's what TPTB were thinking in the days of TOS.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
gree.
I think “re-amplification” is a strong hint that the crystals can loose their amplification properties and therefore have to be regenerated by some exotic process to regain their original and “full crystal [amplification] power”. While the warp engines occasionally needed to be “re-energized” (i.e. recharged) I don’t think that’s necessarily the case with the crystals where “draining” these, IMO, does not imply “discharge” but instead “degradation of amplification properties”.
Makes sense to me - at least it's certainly the best explanation for that weird room so far.
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Old August 17 2013, 11:43 PM   #296
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Praetor wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The Jefferies’ cross section / JCS (illustration above):

I’ve mentioned before that I believe there is sufficient evidence that the ship’s internal description was an early concept for one of the pilot film versions (still including a physical Main Deck 2). The text description mentions 11 main decks and 16 engineering decks.
To be clear, do you mean you think the drawing reflects a smaller Enterprise, the kind that would've had 203 crew members? In turn, the text version represents the "real" size of the Enterprise settled on after the pilots but still fairly early on in production?
Allow me try a chronology of events what I think happened
  1. IIRC, the "203 lives" reflected a much smaller ship from an earlier draft. After they had built the ship to reflect the change in size, they unfortunately forgot to boost crew complement accordingly in the final screenplay
  2. Already for pilot "The Cage" they used the occasion to describe the early and basic internal layout and fix the vessel's size, based on the size of the studio set bridge in relation to the top of the VFX model. Odd: No deck location provided for the transporter room/s, but the concept of saucer separation other than for emergencies only. Could indicate a certain uneasyness whether to really go for the transporter system solution or saucer landing (a la Forbidden Planet).
  3. After the regular series has been green-lighted Matt Jefferies takes the time to do his JCS (which he probably wouldn't have done just for either of the pilots. Why go through the hazzle of doing a cutaway for either of the pilots but the series is rejected?). He realizes that the studio set height doesn't allow for 11 decks in the saucer hull and reduces the number of decks in the JCS. Scriptwriters remain unaware of the change and go by the original text description, therefore
  4. "Errand of Mercy" features visible impacts on Decks 10 and 11
Praetor wrote: View Post
Regarding the "lowering" of the bridge module, here's where I apply the salt. We "know" to an extent that this was done to upsize the ship from a 203 crew vessel to a 430 crew vessel. I choose to, frankly, ignore the dome alteration for this reason. The bridge previously sat higher in a different dome, if you want, but I don't consider it to have any bearing on deck two.
The opening shot onto the transparent bridge in "The Cage" settled the correct size.
Briefing Room # 1 from "The Cage" was located on Deck 3 (still Deck 4 in my current draft). Was converted into the "Briefing Lounge" of WNM (now, actually a recreation or officers' lounge) because Astro-Labs on Deck 2 had been converted into the conference lounge aka Briefing Room # 2 (with a nice panoramic window ahead, but because of the camera angle in WNM we never got a chance to see it behind Kirk's chair...).
When Deck 2 was removed the new conference lounge was removed, too, and a room inside the ship became Briefing Room 2 (often seen in TOS).

If we don't assume that Main Deck 2 had been removed for the regular series (obviously one deck was removed when the bridge module was lowered...), it is impossible to rationalize the long turbo lift ride Spock and the Romulan commander embarked upon in "The Enterprise Incident".

When Spock said "Deck 2" the ship's computer immediately understood he was referring to Engineering Deck 2 because no other "Deck 2" was left on the ship.

Praetor wrote: View Post
I suppose, also, it matters whether the sensor platforms are "decks." Reading this, it sounds like you think that the bridge dome is the reason why there were more decks, and Jefferies revised this number downward when the bridge dome was enshrinkened? Jefferies' Phase II Enterprise cross section may bear scrutiny here, as it was mostly intended to represent the same ship, albeit with changed engine pods and bridge.
For the Phase II cross section he eliminated one more main deck (compared to JCS) and there were only 8 left. It's somewhat odd if you look at the actual result, since the lower deck heights on the TMP Enterprise now allow for 11 main decks while in contrast we have less engineering decks (judging by the window positioning on the engineering hull).

McCOY: I know engineers. They love to change things.

Praetor wrote: View Post
Just to throw a monkey wrench in, this was something put together, I believe, by aridas sofia many years ago that makes too much sense:

While I love the visualization of the studio set inside the saucer (tells me I still got plenty of work ahead on Deck 6),
do I detect an ironic undertone in your comment? There should be two engine rooms in the saucer and therefore the warp engine room is misaligned.

Praetor wrote: View Post
I'd urge you to not feel too beholden to these "other" rooms, especially if you're going for a true Jefferies-level vision.
"Would Matt have approved" is the constant question that runs through my mind. To avoid any misunderstandings: I'm confident that he did not approve a circular corridor in the engineering hull and wanted the end of the Jefferies Tube corridor to feature a turbo lift (to the Bridge). Unfortunately he was overruled by the directors and/or producers and what ended up on film is something different but canon nevertheless (looks like a fate both Enterprise creators had to endure ).

Praetor wrote: View Post
Regarding the cathedrals, I'd also urge you to approach them consistently. That is, if you decide they are forced perspective or not, use them that way in all locations they appear. I have seen others not do so, and in my opinion it is selective thinking at best.
I think I understand exactly what you mean because that issue has caused me considerable headaches.

From a production point-of-view I have no doubt that it was meant to be a forced perspective and in real life would be long and parallel. This is what I reproduced on Main Deck 7 and Engineering Deck 9.
On E-Deck 12 however, the forced-perspective-taken-literally works much, much better with the main sensor-deflector components.

I'm inclined to feature only one engine room in the engineering hull (i.e. E-Deck 12, would be quite a paradigm shift, wouldn't it? ) but that would raise problems to rationalize the turbo lift rides in "Ultimate Computer" and "By Any Other Name" and Janice would need new quarters on E-Deck 12.

Praetor wrote: View Post
Surely there must be some form of ejectable component for the crew's safety, even if it's just a main chamber and fuel cells.
Although according to Scotty "the miracle worker" it was him who made the jettison scenario possible in the first place:

SCOTT: I've sealed off the aft end of the service crawlway, and I've positioned explosive separator charges to blast me clear of the ship if I rupture the magnetic bottle.

IMHO, it should read: I've been sealed in the service crawlway, and I've activated explosive separator charges to blast me clear of the ship if I rupture the magnetic bottle.

I think he really and often exaggerates too much.

Bob
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Old September 9 2013, 10:13 PM   #297
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

So, hiatus over yet?
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Old September 9 2013, 11:07 PM   #298
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Yes, but you are keeping me busy with all these interesting threads you permanently come up with.

I'll be back ASAP. I need to get the Season Three Recreation Room reconstructed, first

Bob
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Old November 8 2013, 11:56 AM   #299
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Belay my last remark, in Praetor's Excelsior scaling thread starting at post # 367 TOS Enterprise related issues came up (and continued) dealing with deck heights in the engineering hull.

This looks like a good opportunity to feature a draft from last December I made trying to fix those deck levels:



My friend Andreas provided a preliminary exterior view, right from the start we decided that the windows should be located as they had been on the actual VFX model and whatever discrepancies would arise from placing the deck levels would somehow needed to be fixed - much to my own surprise the "fixing" was only required on a minimal level.

"Sixteen deck levels"

The Making of Star Trek (TMoST) was very specific and stated that the engineering hull would contain 16 decks. However, the good book left it open from where on to start counting and whether to number individual engineering decks or not.

Although I described this in previous posts here and in other threads, the draft hopefully illustrates the issue: Assuming an overall length of 1,080 feet (in contrast to the 947' figure) and considering the actual footage taking place inside the engineering hull with corridors between 8 and 10' high, will inevitably claim engineering decks inside the connecting dorsal.

I haven't done the simulation but I think it's obvious that if we tried to locate those 16 engineering decks within the actual engineering hull exclusively, we'd arrive at deck level heights that are no longer compatible with the actual footage.

Although it became an abandoned TOS concept, TMoST described saucer separation as a maneuver not limited to ship evacuation scenarios.
This was the major inspiration for me to treat both the engineering hull (including the dorsal) and the saucer hull / main section as distinctive entities with an individual deck numbering for both. I also believe that in a ship evacuation scenario, only the saucer hull would separate, leaving the connecting dorsal (as part of the) engineering hull behind.
And, of course, the Romulan Commander's quarters in "The Enterprise Incident" could be on (Engineering) Deck 2 in the connecting dorsal.

Regarding the window alignment for practical purposes these could either be for "desk-sitters" or for crew personnel walking by (e.g. "promenade deck" featured in the alternate edit of "Where No Man Has Gone Before"). However, Sulu and Dr. Piper may be coming from an elevated dining area in this outer corridor (i.e. the windows that high up are equally useful for crewmembers in transit and for dining area occupants).
As a matter of fact, I'm currently dealing with such a practical situation at the property management I'm working for. We have an entire building floor with windows very high up where our new tennant intends to accomodate office space. What's the solution? All the office spaces are elevated to provide the employees of the company with an outside window view (and once you're mostly sitting in a desk chair you don't pay that much attention to how much overhead space you still got left when standing up).

The enigma of the connecting dorsal's illuminated windows

Unfortunately, TMoST makes no reference whatsoever to the space inside the connecting dorsal. One BBS member (have a good day, too) suggested the vertical lights to be the lights of the (IMHO, erroneous) vertical turbo shaft. I find myself unable to think of a good reason why such lights should be visible on the exterior hull (especially since these correspond to other windows of equal size and proportions)

I firmly believe that these lights correspond to the area where the "main line" vertically connects the engineering hull and the saucer hull (admittedly I've not yet entirely made up my mind whether that line should be the main power line / TMP intermix shaft - "blood vein" - or a main systems line - "nervous system").

As such these room lights would be permanently on for inspection of the main line while simultaneously accomodating the ladders connecting both hulls. In the highly improbable, however not necessarily impossible, case that even the emergency lighting could go off, orbiting a planet could still provide some illumination through these windows from the starlight reflected by the planet. It's a weak rationalization but better than none, IMHO, and I'm most eager to listen to other ideas.

Bob

P.S. Bad news! One of the TOS Enterprise devoted websites I frequently visited was Phil Broad's www.cloudster.com. I find myself unable to access this great website any longer. Are his pictures now lost or have these been saved?
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; November 8 2013 at 01:04 PM. Reason: Smaller draft illustration looks better
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Old November 8 2013, 02:46 PM   #300
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Yep you can find pretty much everything on the Wayback Machine at archive.org.

It is a crying shame that the original site went away. Discovered that last month myself and I was quite shocked. That's when I thankfully discovered the archive.
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