How militarized should Starfleet be? - Page 3

st.barthgirl · November 29 2012, 08:07 PM

Killer Robots? Really? I would Characterize Ceylons {reimagined BSG} as AI at the one end of the Spectrum... but Definitely as Human in terms of the 'Human Condition' ... i think RDM was exploring the [range of] Inhumanity of People and the Humanity of AI in the series... an evolution of his earlier explorations with Data, the Borg, hugh, etc... We are but biological Machines, are we not?
Sorry, a bit off topic.

Galileo7 · November 29 2012, 08:42 PM

SchwEnt wrote:

Whenever we've seen Earth or the Federation threatened by hostiles, Star Fleet is the one who comes to defend. We've never seen some other force or organization serving as the military. Star Fleet is as militarized as it gets.

Except when they're not military.

Agree.

LobsterAfternoon · November 29 2012, 10:28 PM

I don't think there's any disputing that Starfleet is the military of the Federation. They waged war on behalf of the Federation against the Dominion, they have a rank structure, service academy, etc. Like a lot of Trek, Picard's random statement about Starfleet not being a military organization is a weird continuity error/writer boner that made it to air.

Pavonis · November 29 2012, 11:32 PM

I don't think Picard's statements are continuity errors. They actually reflect what he wants Starfleet to be, not necessarily what it is.

Given that Picard also has an interest in archaeology, he's clearly interested in learning about the universe. He explores the past via archaeology and the present via a starship. He doesn't see himself as a soldier or a warrior, but that doesn't mean he's representative of the whole of Starfleet.

I imagine that most of Picard's career was spent exploring. He graduated in the late 2320s, but the first conflicts that we've heard of in that era were in the 2350s, the Cardassian border wars, in which he was at least briefly involved. So for most of his career he was occupied with exploring rather than fighting. That would leave a lasting impression on him, leading him to think of Starfleet as an exploratory organization.

st.barthgirl · November 30 2012, 12:15 AM

Yes, Pavonis, i agree that one's Cultural Moment Informs one's Interpretation of one's Culture more heavily than doctrine or the Rhetoric. Experience is Everything...

KamenRiderBlade · November 30 2012, 12:32 AM

I've always seen StarFleet as a Multi-Function organization

They're whatever they need to be when the mission calls for it.

Explorer / Military Force / Research Organization / Diplomatic Arm / Relief Group

They're flexible and can change on the fly to solve the current problem.

EmperorTiberius · November 30 2012, 01:05 AM

I'd build a few Yamato-class battleships from Star Fleet Command games. Have them patrol the core worlds, waiting for Borg or other invasion fleet. Leave the rest as it is.

jayrath · November 30 2012, 03:17 AM

Nope. Just nope. Read the "Hornblower" novels. Starfleet is part American Coast Guard, but mostly 18th century English navy, when captains were explorers, diplomats and even (kind of) representatives of commercial interests.

"Star Trek" is not war. When that does happen on-screen in the spin-offs, I very rapidly lose interest. If you want space battles, there are plenty of other shows. They are great; I hope you enjoy them. Instead, what made (and makes) Trek great is hope for the future. How can that possibly include a Starfleet constantly poised for battle? I resist and resent militaristic revisionism. Starfleet is the future NASA.

Salutes?

st.barthgirl · November 30 2012, 03:22 AM

The Coast Guard or Nasa {ISA?} is a FANTASTIC analogy... Makes sense. Thanks.

EmperorTiberius · November 30 2012, 03:47 AM

jayrath wrote:

Nope. Just nope. Read the "Hornblower" novels. Starfleet is part American Coast Guard, but mostly 18th century English navy, when captains were explorers, diplomats and even (kind of) representatives of commercial interests.

"Star Trek" is not war. When that does happen on-screen in the spin-offs, I very rapidly lose interest. If you want space battles, there are plenty of other shows. They are great; I hope you enjoy them. Instead, what made (and makes) Trek great is hope for the future. How can that possibly include a Starfleet constantly poised for battle? I resist and resent militaristic revisionism. Starfleet is the future NASA.

Salutes?

I'm not a fan of war either, but they are part a defense organization as stated in the tech manuals and seen on screen. Even the original had Enterprise facing off against Romulans, Klingons, you can't deny that.

I read Hornblower "Beat to Quarters" novel and I remember a big battle towads the end of the novel against a Spanish ship of the line. I'm sure the Brits kept a fleet of ships of the line somewhere in the Channel to prevent invasion or conduct their own. That's why I said, I woudn't mind having a few battleships just patrolling in the core systems or even parked inside starbases, so that the business of exploring can continue.

T'Girl · November 30 2012, 03:47 AM

st.barthgirl wrote:

Contemporary Astronauts, as i understand it, can be Scientists "trained" to do the job in space... Yes? But, originally, they were all Military.. mostly Pilots, if i recall ...

As I understand it, anyone who travels above 62.1 miles in altitude is considered an "astronaut."

During the Apollo moon missions, NASA thought it would be easier and faster to train pilots to be scientists, as opposed to training scientists to be pilots. The only exception I know of is Harrison Schmitt, who received a Ph.D. in geology from Harvard University, and after being selected was trained by NASA to be a jet pilot. He flew on Apollo 17.

Politics, Arggh!

Teal'c: "Indeed."

plynch · November 30 2012, 04:00 AM

They question orders a lot. "But Captain, . . ."

In one of the Hornblower books I remember a quandary when the officers are trying to bring up how to even suggest something to the Captain, not even questioning an order already given.

The Wormhole · November 30 2012, 04:03 AM

I don't get all these "it's something more than military" comments. Everything we've seen Starfleet do is consistent with what militaries today have done. Granted, Starfleet might have a larger science division than any military organization, but they operate in space. Space has all kinds of weird shit that is going to require you to have scientists on your ships, and likewise you're going to want to study this stuff and research it for any practical advantages it offers. This is consistent among Trek's militristic aliens like the Klingons and Romulans, why would Starfleet be any less of a military because of it?

Starfleet is the military, it was very clearly depicted as one in TOS. I say it still was in the 24th century, and that the times people said it wasn't is a relfection of propaganda. People sign up for Starfleet so that they can hang out on paradise planets and score with the local women with many breasts, amazing looks, and open minded about -ah screw it, they want to bang alien women, okay? What they don't sign up for is to get stuck on some filthy rock fighting scaly gray skin aliens over some communications outpost, even if that's what they end up doing.

st.barthgirl · November 30 2012, 04:53 AM

thanks, t'girl. those are Good Facts. Me Likey...

commanderkai · November 30 2012, 07:05 AM

Eh, it needs to be expanded. Other than the Dominion War, how many episodes were the words "We're the only ship in the sector, sir" mentioned? Hell, Generations had the newly launched Enterprise be the only ship in the vicinity of the ribbon. They were launching from the main shipyards, in the same solar system as one of the heaviest populated worlds in the Federation, as well as their capital. Does anybody see an issue here?

Plus, a bit more...hmm...common sense features would be nice. Some armor/power armor, or as Star Trek: Online has, some personal shielding for ground soldiers.

November 29 2012, 08:07 PM	#31
st.barthgirl Lieutenant Location: I Believe in Dog	Re: How militarized should Starfleet be? Killer Robots? Really? I would Characterize Ceylons {reimagined BSG} as AI at the one end of the Spectrum... but Definitely as Human in terms of the 'Human Condition' ... i think RDM was exploring the [range of] Inhumanity of People and the Humanity of AI in the series... an evolution of his earlier explorations with Data, the Borg, hugh, etc... We are but biological Machines, are we not? Sorry, a bit off topic.

November 29 2012, 10:28 PM	#33
LobsterAfternoon Commander	Re: How militarized should Starfleet be? I don't think there's any disputing that Starfleet is the military of the Federation. They waged war on behalf of the Federation against the Dominion, they have a rank structure, service academy, etc. Like a lot of Trek, Picard's random statement about Starfleet not being a military organization is a weird continuity error/writer boner that made it to air.

November 29 2012, 11:32 PM	#34
Pavonis Commodore Location: South Dakota	Re: How militarized should Starfleet be? I don't think Picard's statements are continuity errors. They actually reflect what he wants Starfleet to be, not necessarily what it is. Given that Picard also has an interest in archaeology, he's clearly interested in learning about the universe. He explores the past via archaeology and the present via a starship. He doesn't see himself as a soldier or a warrior, but that doesn't mean he's representative of the whole of Starfleet. I imagine that most of Picard's career was spent exploring. He graduated in the late 2320s, but the first conflicts that we've heard of in that era were in the 2350s, the Cardassian border wars, in which he was at least briefly involved. So for most of his career he was occupied with exploring rather than fighting. That would leave a lasting impression on him, leading him to think of Starfleet as an exploratory organization.

November 30 2012, 12:15 AM	#35
st.barthgirl Lieutenant Location: I Believe in Dog	Re: How militarized should Starfleet be? Yes, Pavonis, i agree that one's Cultural Moment Informs one's Interpretation of one's Culture more heavily than doctrine or the Rhetoric. Experience is Everything...

November 30 2012, 12:32 AM	#36
KamenRiderBlade Lieutenant Commander	Re: How militarized should Starfleet be? I've always seen StarFleet as a Multi-Function organization They're whatever they need to be when the mission calls for it. Explorer / Military Force / Research Organization / Diplomatic Arm / Relief Group They're flexible and can change on the fly to solve the current problem.

STAR TREK

CSI

ABOUT US

November 30 2012, 01:05 AM	#37
EmperorTiberius Captain	Re: How militarized should Starfleet be? I'd build a few Yamato-class battleships from Star Fleet Command games. Have them patrol the core worlds, waiting for Borg or other invasion fleet. Leave the rest as it is.

November 30 2012, 03:17 AM	#38
jayrath Fleet Captain Location: West Hollywood, Calif., USA	Re: How militarized should Starfleet be? Nope. Just nope. Read the "Hornblower" novels. Starfleet is part American Coast Guard, but mostly 18th century English navy, when captains were explorers, diplomats and even (kind of) representatives of commercial interests. "Star Trek" is not war. When that does happen on-screen in the spin-offs, I very rapidly lose interest. If you want space battles, there are plenty of other shows. They are great; I hope you enjoy them. Instead, what made (and makes) Trek great is hope for the future. How can that possibly include a Starfleet constantly poised for battle? I resist and resent militaristic revisionism. Starfleet is the future NASA. Salutes?

November 30 2012, 03:22 AM	#39
st.barthgirl Lieutenant Location: I Believe in Dog	Re: How militarized should Starfleet be? The Coast Guard or Nasa {ISA?} is a FANTASTIC analogy... Makes sense. Thanks.

November 30 2012, 04:00 AM	#42
plynch Fleet Captain Location: Outer Graceland	Re: How militarized should Starfleet be? They question orders a lot. "But Captain, . . ." In one of the Hornblower books I remember a quandary when the officers are trying to bring up how to even suggest something to the Captain, not even questioning an order already given. __________________ Author of Live Like Louis: Inspirational Stories from the Life of Louis Armstrong, http://livelikelouis.com.

November 30 2012, 04:03 AM	#43
The Wormhole Admiral	Re: How militarized should Starfleet be? I don't get all these "it's something more than military" comments. Everything we've seen Starfleet do is consistent with what militaries today have done. Granted, Starfleet might have a larger science division than any military organization, but they operate in space. Space has all kinds of weird shit that is going to require you to have scientists on your ships, and likewise you're going to want to study this stuff and research it for any practical advantages it offers. This is consistent among Trek's militristic aliens like the Klingons and Romulans, why would Starfleet be any less of a military because of it? Starfleet is the military, it was very clearly depicted as one in TOS. I say it still was in the 24th century, and that the times people said it wasn't is a relfection of propaganda. People sign up for Starfleet so that they can hang out on paradise planets and score with the local women with many breasts, amazing looks, and open minded about -ah screw it, they want to bang alien women, okay? What they don't sign up for is to get stuck on some filthy rock fighting scaly gray skin aliens over some communications outpost, even if that's what they end up doing. __________________ "Internet message boards aren't as funny today as they were ten years ago. I've stopped reading new posts." -The Simpsons 20th anniversary special.

November 30 2012, 04:53 AM	#44
st.barthgirl Lieutenant Location: I Believe in Dog	Re: How militarized should Starfleet be? thanks, t'girl. those are Good Facts. Me Likey...

November 30 2012, 07:05 AM	#45
commanderkai Lieutenant Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada	Re: How militarized should Starfleet be? Eh, it needs to be expanded. Other than the Dominion War, how many episodes were the words "We're the only ship in the sector, sir" mentioned? Hell, Generations had the newly launched Enterprise be the only ship in the vicinity of the ribbon. They were launching from the main shipyards, in the same solar system as one of the heaviest populated worlds in the Federation, as well as their capital. Does anybody see an issue here? Plus, a bit more...hmm...common sense features would be nice. Some armor/power armor, or as Star Trek: Online has, some personal shielding for ground soldiers.