Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

[Melakon]

Mea culpa.

(which sounds like the name of an actress)

[teacake]

Oh well, he may well have been making that comparison.. I just assumed that the revered and potentially pretentious band went with DS9 and the cheesy band went with Voyager.

Neelix is like a Saturday morning television character of that era.

[Melakon]

I did think Guy's comparison was oddly reversed. The last-minute replacement of a key member was the only analogy I could find in that sense.

[Lynx]

Melakon wrote:

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I thought about saying Stu, but he died.

That's right but he left The Beatles before that. Pete Best was kicked out in a not so nice way which the remaining members of The Beatles actually admitted some years later.

Since Bujold actually left before Voyager did take off, it's more appropriate to compare her with Stu Sutcliffe even if the situations aren't similar at all.

[teacake]

There is no real nice way to kick someone out.

Oh.. unless you give them a huge sum of money as they leave.

[Melakon]

Worst Neelix Halloween mask I've ever seen.



Reminds me more of Vernon Wells as Wez in Mad Max 2/The Road Warrior.

[Guy Gardener]

Guy Gardener wrote:

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Voyager and DS9 were produced by very different people.

(The distant void desert that separates ideas created by the cleavage between two paragraphs which divorces any subtle tethers between the two ideas!)

It's like comparing the Beatles to the Monkeys.

It's also possible that I might have meant the monkey's from the beginning of 2001 and not the Monkees.

[Melakon]

But-- but these are more fun.

(embedding disabled, use YouTube button)

[mswood]

MacLeod wrote:

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^^DSN managed to keep up with the times and incorperate arc based story telling, so it isn't fair to say that Trek wasn't keeping up with the times. It might be fairer to say that some Trek shows were better in keeping with the changing times than others.

While DS9 (my favorite Trek series without question) did arc based story telling, its not the type of arc based story telling that I am talking about I should have said serial story telling.

Having events run Most of DS9 arc story telling was in either multi part story telling or picking up ideas and events from other episodes and building an episode around that. Modern Dramas were incorporating serial arc based story telling. Where events from one episode were deeply connected to parts of the very next episode. Voyage did this with the "spy" story line that was developed running through several episodes.

It wasn't until later in DS9 run that they really started doing this. Though they did do arc based story telling, just of a different kind.

Also just to point out that DS9 due to Piller and then Piller's hand picked replacement did take more risks. Though unlike Voyager (where DS9 did manage writing, and characterization about 5 times better then Voyager), it didn't push the visual aspect as much (and I don't mean a darker color palette or great CGI, just in how drama's are staged, cut, and filmed). For his weaknesses, Braga was out of those running any of the writing room, the best visual writer for Trek (and its why I wish that Ron and Braga could have continued together through their Trek run).

But it wasn't until Braga and Berman's 3rd season of Enterprise that Trek really tried a full season based serial story telling. Nearly a decade after Piller started that push to more modern story telling. And tv dramas were doing it probably 15 plus years earlier.

[Guy Gardener]

Berman and Braga were hopelessly depressed by the lack of success on Enterprise.

They turned off their brains in season three, letting the little people go mad with power, then they were on holiday for season 4 when they handed everything over to Manny Coto.

This is why paramount stopped making Star Trek to wait out Berman's contract, because they couldn't extract him from Star trek if he had on ongoing or in development projects.

And now what do we have? A new movie every 5 or 6 years?

Berman was making shit, but at least he was making a lot of it.

[teacake]

And now someone will ask, would you rather have 100 episodes of regular shit or 10 episodes of awesome quality.

[Melakon]

But sometimes you can get some really good shit.

[teacake]

Not to mention that there's a lot of hilarity in repetition, tropes out the wazoo etc..

[AllStarEntprise]

teacake wrote:

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Not to mention that there's a lot of hilarity in repetition, tropes out the wazoo etc..

I plan on watching Voyager and counting how many times they employ the 'reset button'/restorration the status quo and how many shuttle crafts get totaled in Voyager.

[Guy Gardener]

10 episodes a year?

I wish.

What we're getting, those movies convert into about 5 or 6 episodes a decade is you don't count the adds attached your 40 minutes of programming.