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Old December 28 2012, 04:37 PM   #211
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

teacake wrote: View Post
She seemed to have an understanding but I wouldn't trust her to advise someone out of a box.
Which is more than Troi had going for her. Without her empathy she had nothing. Witness every time she tried counseling Data, it pretty much backfired. Not to mention Kes could read an encyclopedia in a day and retain that information since she became a medical expert in the space of a year easy enough.
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Old December 28 2012, 10:42 PM   #212
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

teacake wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
I can agree that making her the ship's nurse wasn't the best move. She should have been a counselor, like Troi.
Because we all want to talk to 3 year old Counselors who have lived all their life underground or on a tin can in space.

That would have been AWFUL. Worse than Troi.

LOL I would rather be counseled by 7 of 9.. "your crap is irrelevant" and "you will adapt" are pretty useful approaches to life.
I disagree.

First of all, we are looking too much at numbers here. Kes was equivalent to a 25-30 year old human. And as Star Grinch stated: "Kes seemed to have a general understanding how people ticked even if she didn't have much life experience."

Nothing wrong with Troi but I think that Kes would have been a better counselor.
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Old December 28 2012, 11:20 PM   #213
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

It's difficult to compare because all counseling shown by Trek is magic pablum that instantly improves the patient's perspective on their life. Certainly all you need is to read a few encyclopedias and be a quick study to dispense the magic pablum well. Or to engage in a few minutes of vapid reflecting back of the patient's feelings.

The only person shown with serious ongoing problems was Barclay.
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Old December 29 2012, 02:01 AM   #214
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
I can agree that making her the ship's nurse wasn't the best move. She should have been a counselor, like Troi.
Because we all want to talk to 3 year old Counselors who have lived all their life underground or on a tin can in space.

That would have been AWFUL. Worse than Troi.

LOL I would rather be counseled by 7 of 9.. "your crap is irrelevant" and "you will adapt" are pretty useful approaches to life.
I disagree.

First of all, we are looking too much at numbers here. Kes was equivalent to a 25-30 year old human. And as Star Grinch stated: "Kes seemed to have a general understanding how people ticked even if she didn't have much life experience."

Nothing wrong with Troi but I think that Kes would have been a better counselor.
I think it's hard to say how old Kes was compared to a human. In "Caretaker" she acts about 20 in our years but in "Twisted" she's acting more like she's 12. If she were 25-30 in human years, wouldn't she be more mentality prepared for the Elogium than she was?

They never stated that they had any problems writing for Chakotay, Kim, Neelix and a few others.
You didn't have to, watching the show made this obvious.

They only stated that they suddenly got all the problems to write for Kes when season 4 started. Now that is suspicious!
I don't disagree with them nor do I find it suspicious. I don't think they knew what direction to take the character in after a while. I believe the same is true of Harry Kim.

If they knew what they were doing with her, they wouldn't have made her a nurse, which now took her out of senior crew meetings. It limits the actresses screen time and much of the interaction with other cast members.
They limited her again by giving the Doc his mobile emitter. If he can now go ANYWHERE, then he doesn't need her assistance as much. Regardless of them writing her job would increase, it actually didn't. What it did was allow Robert Picardo to have a bigger part which in turn stole more time away from Lien.
They wouldn't have had her adapt the speak when spoken to mentality as she was getting older which would decrease the amount of dialog written for her and they wouldn't have made her adopt the "I'm now afraid of my powers" attitude.
If she isn't going to use her abilities, then they just cut out another aspect that would have created more stories for the character. All these things limited the potential and most of the unique aspects of the character. If you put all of that into perspective, they were systematically cutting Kes out.

The lifespan was only silly. It would have been obvious for anyone to realize that species with such a short lifespan could only develop into primates.
It's science fiction and she's an alien.
We've seen plenty of examples in Trek were the law some science and evolution don't apply to alien species.
Besides, their evolution would still be in synch with their genetic make up. By your logic, Vulcan's and Klingon's would have reacted the next stage of evolution long ago.

And why should she leave in "Darkling"? Of course she realized that she had a better chance to see, explore and finally arrive to Earth with the Voyager crew than to travel limited areas in Zahir's small ship. Besides that, she had her new family and a new, happy life on Voyger so why should she leave?
She would leave for the same reasons she left Ocampa with strangers, to see what she couldn't on Voyager from a different perspective.
I never assumed Earth was going to be her final destination seeing that twice in the past she was eager to leave Voyager to and take her exploration of herself and space in a new direction.
Everybody has family but most as they grow up, move out and away from their family to explore and start a life on their own. If Kes could say good-bye to her family/people and life on Ocampa without batting an eye, you think she wouldn't do the same to a ship full of people she wasn't related too? Again, she already tried twice. If she's that eager to leave, then eventually Janeway's "Please, stay" speech wasn't going to work.
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Old December 29 2012, 02:17 AM   #215
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Emotional puberty and physical puberty are different.

And fertility doesn't seem to be about puberty anyway.

It's more like a midlife crisis.

60,000 years ago 13 years was half way to the grave.
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Old December 29 2012, 02:44 AM   #216
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Emotional puberty and physical puberty are different.
....and wasn't her conclusion in the end that she wasn't either yet?
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Old December 29 2012, 03:47 AM   #217
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

That was her first orgasm.

I know.

I found it unrecognisable too.
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Old December 29 2012, 04:27 AM   #218
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

I don't think it's fair to say that a species that only lives 9 years can't evolve past primates. They would just need to develop social structures that are good at transferring knowledge. We can't assume that just because humans can't absorb a lot of knowledge in nine years that it's impossible with a specialized brain. We don't know under what conditions other species evolve.

Humans' fluid intelligence peaks at 13 yet we consider our prime to be the 20s. Why can't Ocampa fluid intelligence peak at 2? They wouldn't have the crystallized intelligence, but again, maybe their social structures compensated for that, and maybe they had shepherd races like the Caretaker to protect them.
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Old December 29 2012, 07:13 AM   #219
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I don't think it's fair to say that a species that only lives 9 years can't evolve past primates. They would just need to develop social structures that are good at transferring knowledge. We can't assume that just because humans can't absorb a lot of knowledge in nine years that it's impossible with a specialized brain. We don't know under what conditions other species evolve.

Humans' fluid intelligence peaks at 13 yet we consider our prime to be the 20s. Why can't Ocampa fluid intelligence peak at 2? They wouldn't have the crystallized intelligence, but again, maybe their social structures compensated for that, and maybe they had shepherd races like the Caretaker to protect them.
Exactly.
Their structure of mating, glue on their hands, carrying their unborn on their backs and life span would make their genetics more similar to an insect such as a Mayfly.
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Old December 29 2012, 07:21 AM   #220
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I don't think it's fair to say that a species that only lives 9 years can't evolve past primates. They would just need to develop social structures that are good at transferring knowledge. We can't assume that just because humans can't absorb a lot of knowledge in nine years that it's impossible with a specialized brain. We don't know under what conditions other species evolve.

Humans' fluid intelligence peaks at 13 yet we consider our prime to be the 20s. Why can't Ocampa fluid intelligence peak at 2? They wouldn't have the crystallized intelligence, but again, maybe their social structures compensated for that, and maybe they had shepherd races like the Caretaker to protect them.
They simply won't have the time to create anything. Not to mention that the Ocampa didn't show any signs of fast creating or building. They did seem rather placid.

The Caretaker didn't seem to involve himself in too much of their lives either. He just let them live their underground life. He didn't even wipe out the Kazon from the surface, despite knowing that they were a threat to the Ocampa.

exodus wrote:
She would leave for the same reasons she left Ocampa with strangers, to see what she couldn't on Voyager from a different perspective.
I never assumed Earth was going to be her final destination seeing that twice in the past she was eager to leave Voyager to and take her exploration of herself and space in a new direction.
Everybody has family but most as they grow up, move out and away from their family to explore and start a life on their own. If Kes could say good-bye to her family/people and life on Ocampa without batting an eye, you think she wouldn't do the same to a ship full of people she wasn't related too? Again, she already tried twice. If she's that eager to leave, then eventually Janeway's "Please, stay" speech wasn't going to work.
She left Ocampa because she found the whole society boring and backwards. She stayed on Voyager because she liked it there. She had friends and could travel, explore and learn which was what she wanted. Such things happen in life.

As for the writers and their "problems " with writing for characters like Kim, Chakotay etc. They didn't kick out those characters like they did with Kes, that's the difference. If the solution was to kick out the characters they suddenly became incapable to write for, why didn't they dump everyone except Seven? Or why didn't they kick out themselves since they were incapable to do a good job? That would have been the best solution.
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Old December 29 2012, 08:09 AM   #221
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
She left Ocampa because she found the whole society boring and backwards. She stayed on Voyager because she liked it there. She had friends and could travel, explore and learn which was what she wanted. Such things happen in life.
I guess that why she was thinking about leaving Voyager twice on the journey.

They simply won't have the time to create anything. Not to mention that the Ocampa didn't show any signs of fast creating or building. They did seem rather placid.
That makes no sense.
If the Caretaker lives in space and none of them have ever seen him, who built the entire underground society they live in? Do you really think it would take an entire 9 years to build a structure? If they couldn't build anything they who built the societies the Caretaker claimed got destroyed upon his arrival?


As for the writers and their "problems " with writing for characters like Kim, Chakotay etc. They didn't kick out those characters like they did with Kes, that's the difference. If the solution was to kick out the characters they suddenly became incapable to write for, why didn't they dump everyone except Seven? Or why didn't they kick out themselves since they were incapable to do a good job? That would have been the best solution.
For the hundredth time, it's called a contract.
Something you refuse to acknowledge because it would blow all your theories out of the water. The difference is what you're asking for is irrational.
Yeah, lets make the entire cast unemployed just so we can enjoy TV.
Of course somebody getting paid to write for the show would fire themselves because hey, the Star Trek fans entertainment is more important than them having food on the table for their wives and children.
Seriously, have we grown that selfish?
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Old December 29 2012, 08:54 AM   #222
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

exodus wrote: View Post
Of course somebody getting paid to write for the show would fire themselves because hey, the Star Trek fans entertainment is more important than them having food on the table for their wives and children.
Seriously, have we grown that selfish?
My selfishness is sooooo sticky and callow that I want everyone not only fired but deported to some horrible place and all the money saved from not having to pay those layabouts spent on Janeway and 7's hot action chick wardrobes.

At some point I want to see 7 in one of those suede cowboy jackets with the fringes on the arms. With her hair out. On a palomino.

Also, evening ware.
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Old December 29 2012, 12:42 PM   #223
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

[QUOTE=exodus;7459042]
Lynx wrote: View Post
She left Ocampa because she found the whole society boring and backwards. She stayed on Voyager because she liked it there. She had friends and could travel, explore and learn which was what she wanted. Such things happen in life.
I guess that why she was thinking about leaving Voyager twice on the journey.
I can only recall that she considering leaving once, in the episode "Darkling". And she didn't!

Lynx wrote: View Post
They simply won't have the time to create anything. Not to mention that the Ocampa didn't show any signs of fast creating or building. They did seem rather placid.
exodus wrote: View Post
That makes no sense.

If the Caretaker lives in space and none of them have ever seen him, who built the entire underground society they live in? Do you really think it would take an entire 9 years to build a structure? If they couldn't build anything they who built the societies the Caretaker claimed got destroyed upon his arrival?
Only in Braga's mind can a species with a nine year lifespan create a civilization like that. Enough said!


Lynx wrote: View Post
As for the writers and their "problems " with writing for characters like Kim, Chakotay etc. They didn't kick out those characters like they did with Kes, that's the difference. If the solution was to kick out the characters they suddenly became incapable to write for, why didn't they dump everyone except Seven? Or why didn't they kick out themselves since they were incapable to do a good job? That would have been the best solution.
exodus wrote: View Post
For the hundredth time, it's called a contract.
Something you refuse to acknowledge because it would blow all your theories out of the water. The difference is what you're asking for is irrational.
Yeah, lets make the entire cast unemployed just so we can enjoy TV.
Of course somebody getting paid to write for the show would fire themselves because hey, the Star Trek fans entertainment is more important than them having food on the table for their wives and children.
Seriously, have we grown that selfish?
OK, I take it a little more detailed this time.

Not renewing the contract for one of nine actors is basically a firing, no matter what juridical words you use for it. The outcome is the same.

Yeah let's make the entire cast unemployed since the writers couldn't write for them. Or maybe it would be easier to replace the writers who obviously were incapable of doing their job.

And since the writers obviously were incapable of doing their job, why shouldn't they resign? Maybe a staff of new writers would have done a better job with all characters (if they too hadn't been ordered to be unable to write for certain characters at a certain moment).

Not only the writers need food on the table for their families. Actors need that too. Now that can be difficult if actors are fired because the writers can't do their job (or are ordered not to do their job).
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Old December 29 2012, 01:08 PM   #224
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Of course somebody getting paid to write for the show would fire themselves because hey, the Star Trek fans entertainment is more important than them having food on the table for their wives and children.
Seriously, have we grown that selfish?

Not only the writers need food on the table for their families. Actors need that too. Now that can be difficult if actors are fired because the writers can't do their job (or are ordered not to do their job).
Oh heck let's just forget about television and turn Star Trek into a series of plays about our glorious comrades in space.
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Old December 29 2012, 09:35 PM   #225
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Lynx wrote: View Post
I can only recall that she considering leaving once, in the episode "Darkling". And she didn't!
"Coldfire" and "Darkling"
Whether she didn't or didn't actually leave is irrelevant, it's still written she had the desire to do so.

Only in Braga's mind can a species with a nine year lifespan create a civilization like that. Enough said!
Which didn't hinder the show in anyway and is a non issue to everyone but yourself.
Voyager is still being watched in reruns & still selling merchandise to this day. Sounds like Braga did a good job with the viewing audience and with his employers at Paramount. Enough said.


OK, I take it a little more detailed this time.

Not renewing the contract for one of nine actors is basically a firing, no matter what juridical words you use for it. The outcome is the same.

Yeah let's make the entire cast unemployed since the writers couldn't write for them. Or maybe it would be easier to replace the writers who obviously were incapable of doing their job.

And since the writers obviously were incapable of doing their job, why shouldn't they resign? Maybe a staff of new writers would have done a better job with all characters (if they too hadn't been ordered to be unable to write for certain characters at a certain moment).

Not only the writers need food on the table for their families. Actors need that too. Now that can be difficult if actors are fired because the writers can't do their job (or are ordered not to do their job).
Says who, a handful of fans on a message board?

If Trek fans were the only ones watching the shows, Voyager would have ended production after the first season. TNG would have NEVER been as popular or had the ground breaking ratings it did. All the die hard Trek fans globally still isn't a big enough audience to keep a show in production. There is an entire world of viewers out there who aren't represented here. There are casual viewers that watched the show as well. There is a larger majority of the audience that watched the show and didn't have any issues and have no interest in joining a fanbased message board. There is a bigger part of the audience that didn't like Kes over those that did and proved the show can run just fine without your support. J.J. Abrams proved Trek can still find a new audience and be successful without a majority of the fans support.

Too fire an entire writing staff just for the comfort of a handful of the viewing audience is irrational and unrealistic. Fans such as yourself need to wake up and realize you don't run Trek or the choices they make in production. Paramount has accounting and staff researchers that that compile data for things such as this GLOBALLY. Voyager's ratings held strong enough for it to run 7 full years which is exactly what those that created it and Paramount & their accountants hoped for. That's a successful show in the eyes of a TV studio. You don't fire a entire staff if the majority of the audience is holding strong, still tuning and and bringing in the sales you expected it too and you certainly don't based you're production on a small portion of your audience. Voyager just recently got voted #1 Trek series people wanted to see brought to Blu-Ray.(Reported on Yahoo & Facebook) Further proof that the show has a larger audience and that the majority are still willing to pay for it.
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