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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old December 20 2012, 07:56 AM   #166
Guy Gardener
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Beltran is a minority, he's made entirely of wood, and sacking Ethan would have ruined their complete denial about how awful every facet of Neelix truely was.

If Lien had had surprised the Bees with a tasteful "spread" in Maxim or FHM (Both Roxanne and Jeri have been in at least one of these publications half naked.) as they were sharpening the axe for her neck, I wonder if that would have saved her job?
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Old December 21 2012, 09:48 AM   #167
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

In Maxim as what, the cute kindergarten teacher gets naughty for the lads?

This is not working in my head.
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Old December 21 2012, 10:02 AM   #168
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Dream wrote: View Post
Doesn't explain why none if the main actors of DS9 were fired when Worf joined THAT show though.
Because Michael Dorn's salary was paid by the props department.
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Old December 21 2012, 11:13 AM   #169
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
Doesn't explain why none if the main actors of DS9 were fired when Worf joined THAT show though.
Because Michael Dorn's salary was paid by the props department.
Is that suppose to be some kind of joke?
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Old December 21 2012, 11:19 AM   #170
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Dream wrote: View Post
Is that suppose to be some kind of joke?
Yes, it was a joke.
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Old December 21 2012, 11:28 AM   #171
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
Is that suppose to be some kind of joke?
Yes, it was a joke.
I almost believed you for a moment.
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Old December 23 2012, 02:35 PM   #172
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Better
When i feel nostalgic i watch s2-3 though
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Old December 23 2012, 07:10 PM   #173
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

It got better, yes. but not because Kes left. Kes suffered along with Chakotay, Kim and Paris as not being developed by the writing staff. Although personally, Kes was not an interesting character to me. How many psychic characters does a franchise need? They could have, however, done something along the lines of her gaining incredible power and having to adjust to being around those who didn't have the same abilities. She easily could have been distanced from the crew, like 7, and needed Janeway's help to reconnect to those around her. Of course she wasn't the eye-candy hottie that 7 was, so why do it. Besides, Borg are cool. The issue isn't did 7 replace Kes, it's that the stories got better after season 3. Not Kes's fault.
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Old December 25 2012, 04:48 AM   #174
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
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Oh no, it was better with Kes.
Okay, but would the show have been better if they ditched Harry for 7 like they originally intended? It seems like Harry is one of those characters who went no where and almost never got any sort of real character development. He only had one episode dedicated to him in season 1 and it wasn't very good and he never really improved with time.
I agree but I do think Harry/Tom had more ongoing potential than Kes/EMH. Tom and Harry were great opposites that brought a certain balance to each character. I think by s5, the EMH wasn't going to need Kes' guidance anymore because he was already on his way to being fully independent by the end of s3. I don't really see where they had developed a strong enough bond with Kes' interaction with others as they did Harry. Harry had more interaction and stronger relationships with Tuvok, B'Elanna & Janeway than Kes ever did. Plus I don't see any other character on Voyager being as believably affected by survivor guilt as Harry was in "Timeless".
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Old December 25 2012, 04:51 AM   #175
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Harry was the sidekick. Too bad Tom wasn't more of the Bad Boy, would have enhanced the sidekick quite a bit.
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Old December 25 2012, 05:00 AM   #176
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

teacake wrote: View Post
Harry was the sidekick. Too bad Tom wasn't more of the Bad Boy, would have enhanced the sidekick quite a bit.
I think it depends on how you view a "bad boy".
Had Voyager been a social non-military based show, Tom wasn't bad boy enough. I agree. However, Tom was insubordinate in just the fact that her talked back to Janeway and always spoke out of term. By military standards Tom is a bad boy. Tom would have NEVER been allowed to serve on the Enterprise and Sisko would have punched him in his mouth every other show.
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Old December 25 2012, 05:04 AM   #177
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

But he could have been the Bad Boy in his private time. In his private friendships and private relationships. He could have been a Curzon (lothario), a Starbuck (crazy), a Garibaldi (believable past addiction). Instead we get a pleasant fellow who gets a bit mouthy now and then by strict military standards. Vanilla.
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Old December 25 2012, 05:15 AM   #178
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

teacake wrote: View Post
But he could have been the Bad Boy in his private time. In his private friendships and private relationships. He could have been a Curzon (lothario), a Starbuck (crazy), a Garibaldi (believable past addiction). Instead we get a pleasant fellow who gets a bit mouthy now and then by strict military standards. Vanilla.
If he was that bad, then would Janeway still have gotten the ok to get him released from prison? It was the "Great Santini". Tom was only a bad boy cause he had a over bearing military minded father. He was never good enough in his fathers eyes, so he was bad because he gave up trying.
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Old December 25 2012, 05:31 AM   #179
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Those bad boy examples (with certain exceptions in Starbuck's case) are all personal flaws or character traits.

Would they have released Tom if he'd screwed his way across half a quadrant like Curzon? Sure.

Would they have released Tom if he'd been an alcoholic but was now sober? Sure.

Would they have released Tom if he was an erratic nutjob like Starbuck? Possibly, if he'd kept that to his personal life and showed a lot of line toeing when it came to authority.

Any of those would have made the Bad Boy label believable.
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Old December 25 2012, 11:34 AM   #180
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Re: Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

Tom was a bad boy because he joined the Maquis.

Which would be exceptional on any other ship other than Voyager which was 25 percent Maquis who had been around longer than a week before they got pinched in a raid, then rolled over on the cause.

Sounds like a punk to me.
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