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Old March 6 2013, 08:44 PM   #121
Pauln6
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Paper Moon wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Yes, I agree that part of the problem is the large casts, including the Big 7 but they aren't going to help matters by making Nero a man, by making Robau a man, by making Olsen a man, by making Keenser a male, by featuring a nameless male Vulcan instead of T'Pau, by making Admiral Marcus Carol's dad instead of her mum. I'm not saying that they should all have been female but if they had been, there would still have been more male than female characters. The fact that none of them were really skews the dynamic.
Quick question: who is "Admiral Marcus" and how do we know about him? Google isn't actually giving me any sources.
Ah yes - I might be getting ahead of myself. Marcus as first officer of the Enterprise is mentioned in the prequel comic. Some are speculating that Peter Weller will turn out to be Carol's Dad. Either way, Weller has been cast, and he's a white dude.

The race issue can be frustrating too but equally we have an alien desert with only a handful of aliens being present at graduation. It may be that there are alien academies as well so Earth tends to have humans. It would be nice to see some more new characters from some of the classic TOS races though.
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Old March 6 2013, 09:12 PM   #122
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Ah yes - I might be getting ahead of myself. Marcus as first officer of the Enterprise is mentioned in the prequel comic. Some are speculating that Peter Weller will turn out to be Carol's Dad.
It would be nice if we could just stop treating speculations, rumors, and guesses as though they were worth basing any conclusions on. It's only two months and change until the movie comes out, and there are going to be advance reviews and press coverage before then, so it won't be long until we get genuine answers. And then most of this speculation is going to look pretty silly. At this point it seems better just to have a little patience, since the actual facts are so close now.

The race issue can be frustrating too but equally we have an alien desert with only a handful of aliens being present at graduation.
We saw a lot more Starfleet aliens in this movie than we ever saw in TOS, even if they were just background extras.


It would be nice to see some more new characters from some of the classic TOS races though.
Don't Orions count as a classic TOS race? And there was a redesigned Gorn in the deleted Rura Penthe scenes from the '09 movie.
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Old March 6 2013, 09:58 PM   #123
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Christopher wrote: View Post
The race issue can be frustrating too but equally we have an alien desert with only a handful of aliens being present at graduation.
We saw a lot more Starfleet aliens in this movie than we ever saw in TOS, even if they were just background extras.


It would be nice to see some more new characters from some of the classic TOS races though.
Don't Orions count as a classic TOS race? And there was a redesigned Gorn in the deleted Rura Penthe scenes from the '09 movie.
Yeah it's a shame the Rura Penthe stuff got cut. I don't mind the Orions but I'm not a fan of neutering the species' potential by just making them perky green humans. Orions were way more fun in TOS and Enterprise and I also loved the attention paid to the Andorians in Enterprise. It was nice to see the Vulcans (although I wish they'd included T'Pau) but blue is the new green.

Generally, I'd rather see some familiar aliens rather than new and pointless big eyes or bumpy heads. I have no issue if they want to throw some money at re-imaging the regulars. I have to admit begrudgingly that new aliens done well can turn into fantastic assets for the franchise but there are so many fun pre-existing ones to develop that this would be my preference.
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Old March 6 2013, 10:15 PM   #124
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

I've been regretting for decades that the various makeup creators on TMP, the later movies, and the later TV series kept making up new aliens instead of revisiting what their predecessors had created. We've gotten so many aliens that were seen once and then never used again. It undermines the believability of Trek as a consistent universe. I would've liked to see more ongoing coordination, a commitment to developing the species that had already been introduced rather than making up new ones at random.
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Old March 6 2013, 10:30 PM   #125
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
by making Robau a man, by making Olsen a man
You would have freaked if those female characters got killed over males.

by making Keenser a male
Canonically, do we know that? Might Keenser be some other gender?

featuring a nameless male Vulcan instead of T'Pau
Then you missed seeing the rescued female. I'm sure I saw one - and I hoped, at the time, that she'd be revealed to be T'Pau.
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Old March 6 2013, 11:44 PM   #126
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Christopher wrote: View Post
I've been regretting for decades that the various makeup creators on TMP, the later movies, and the later TV series kept making up new aliens instead of revisiting what their predecessors had created. We've gotten so many aliens that were seen once and then never used again. It undermines the believability of Trek as a consistent universe. I would've liked to see more ongoing coordination, a commitment to developing the species that had already been introduced rather than making up new ones at random.
Ditto - loved Ex Machina.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
by making Robau a man, by making Olsen a man
You would have freaked if those female characters got killed over males.

by making Keenser a male
Canonically, do we know that? Might Keenser be some other gender?

featuring a nameless male Vulcan instead of T'Pau
Then you missed seeing the rescued female. I'm sure I saw one - and I hoped, at the time, that she'd be revealed to be T'Pau.
Lol - no I'm quite happy if men and women get bumped off in equal numbers Canonically I'm not sure if Keenser even has a gender; in the comics he's a dude. And of course I spotted the Vulcan Elder! Plenty of opportunity to give her a name check but she's such a great character it would have been a waste. Chapel was just a tease.
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Old March 7 2013, 01:26 AM   #127
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Paper Moon wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Yes, I agree that part of the problem is the large casts, including the Big 7 but they aren't going to help matters by making Nero a man, by making Robau a man, by making Olsen a man, by making Keenser a male, by featuring a nameless male Vulcan instead of T'Pau, by making Admiral Marcus Carol's dad instead of her mum. I'm not saying that they should all have been female but if they had been, there would still have been more male than female characters. The fact that none of them were really skews the dynamic.
Quick question: who is "Admiral Marcus" and how do we know about him? Google isn't actually giving me any sources.
Ah yes - I might be getting ahead of myself. Marcus as first officer of the Enterprise is mentioned in the prequel comic. Some are speculating that Peter Weller will turn out to be Carol's Dad. Either way, Weller has been cast, and he's a white dude.
Ah. So, there's actually nothing confirmed about "Admiral Marcus" appearing in the movie. Okay.

Also, not to whine, I realize this is the Star Trek Ongoing thread, but it sounds like that little nugget came from Countdown– which I haven't read yet and would just as soon not have spoiled. Tags next time?

As for gender and racial balance in the movie: at the time, in the theater, with no time to reflect on what I was seeing, it felt like the movie skewed towards white humans. I'm thinking of the scenes in the big auditorium at Starfleet, like this one: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...ekxihd2850.jpg

Lots of caucasian skin. Now, of course, it is surprisingly difficult to distinguish European, Latino, Native American, Middle Eastern, South Asian and even East Asian skin tones from a distance, especially when they aren't in focus. But still, the overall effect I saw in the theater (which is how most people are gonna see it; very few will go to TrekCore afterwards to examine more closely) was lots and lots of white humans.

Worth saying that there are, in fact, more aliens in the crowd than first meets the eye.

Here: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...ekxihd0849.jpg Third row middle, looks a bit like a clean-shaven Tellarite.

Here:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...ekxihd0850.jpg Not-quite-Tellarite again and then copper-skinned female with earrings.

Here:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...ekxihd2851.jpg Second row in the middle, another copper-skinned female, this one without earrings. A little to the right of dead-center of the photo is an alien with a huge head, and next to him/her/it is another alien. Near the right edge, in the first row of redshirts is another alien.

All of whom were barely noticeable in the film, for better or for worse. *shrug*

Here:
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Old March 7 2013, 03:06 AM   #128
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Paper Moon wrote: View Post
As for gender and racial balance in the movie: at the time, in the theater, with no time to reflect on what I was seeing, it felt like the movie skewed towards white humans. I'm thinking of the scenes in the big auditorium at Starfleet, like this one: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...ekxihd2850.jpg

Lots of caucasian skin. Now, of course, it is surprisingly difficult to distinguish European, Latino, Native American, Middle Eastern, South Asian and even East Asian skin tones from a distance, especially when they aren't in focus. But still, the overall effect I saw in the theater (which is how most people are gonna see it; very few will go to TrekCore afterwards to examine more closely) was lots and lots of white humans.
The composition of a large crowd of extras like that is most likely going to reflect the demographics of the place where it was filmed, in this case the Greater Los Angeles area (the assembly scenes were shot in Long Beach). So the majority would be white or Hispanic (or both), with maybe around 10% each black and Asian. I'd say the crowd I'm seeing in that photo is compatible with those estimates.

I do recall hearing about crowd-scene casting calls for the film which specifically requested extras not only of all ethnicities, but of "unusual" appearance, presumably people who could pass as aliens of one sort or another. So they were not trying for uniformity, I know that.


Here:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...ekxihd0850.jpg Not-quite-Tellarite again and then copper-skinned female with earrings.
That female, or one of the same species, also appeared as a background bridge officer on the Enterprise, manning the console just starboard of Spock's. She was called "Madeline" behind the scenes.

Here:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...ekxihd2851.jpg Second row in the middle, another copper-skinned female, this one without earrings. A little to the right of dead-center of the photo is an alien with a huge head, and next to him/her/it is another alien.
The big-head guy also ended up on the Enterprise, in the torpedo bay. He was nicknamed "Dexter."

And if you look over the names and photos of the extras playing Enterprise crew on that Memory Alpha page I linked to, you'll see they're a very ethnically diverse group.
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Old March 7 2013, 07:48 AM   #129
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^ Thanks for the background info and links, Christopher. Very cool.

To be clear, I agree that there definitely is a range of ethnicities present among the extras playing the Enterprise crew, and it's clear that the crowd at Starfleet is also somewhat ethnically diverse. All I meant was that, as I was watching the movie, the ethnic diversity seemed much less noticeable, to such a degree that I remember remarking on it to myself. That's clearly an issue of perception, not of the particular extras they hired. Still, it's interesting.

Anyway...
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Old March 7 2013, 12:05 PM   #130
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

The diversity in humans was something I really liked in Star Trek. Abrams didn't smack you in the face with trite speeches about how humanity has evolved beyond racism, he simply showed it.
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Old March 7 2013, 08:08 PM   #131
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

King Daniel wrote: View Post
The diversity in humans was something I really liked in Star Trek. Abrams didn't smack you in the face with trite speeches about how humanity has evolved beyond racism, he simply showed it.
Yeah I think the background actors are quite diverse in gender and ethnicity. They can probably tease it up a notch as far as the speaking roles are concerned - possibly two notches as far as gender is concerned.
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Old March 7 2013, 08:25 PM   #132
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Really, given the premise that this is an alternate timeline that diverged from the original, they're limited by the character casting of the original, which was heavy on the white males by dint of being a 1960s TV show. They'd be freer to add diversity if it had simply been a wholesale reboot, Galactica-style. Then they could have, say, a black McCoy, a female Sulu, whatever. (Khan Noonien Kaur?)
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Old March 7 2013, 08:29 PM   #133
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Paper Moon wrote: View Post
Pauln6 wrote: View Post
Paper Moon wrote: View Post

Quick question: who is "Admiral Marcus" and how do we know about him? Google isn't actually giving me any sources.
Ah yes - I might be getting ahead of myself. Marcus as first officer of the Enterprise is mentioned in the prequel comic. Some are speculating that Peter Weller will turn out to be Carol's Dad. Either way, Weller has been cast, and he's a white dude.
Ah. So, there's actually nothing confirmed about "Admiral Marcus" appearing in the movie. Okay.
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Old March 7 2013, 11:45 PM   #134
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Christopher wrote: View Post
Really, given the premise that this is an alternate timeline that diverged from the original, they're limited by the character casting of the original, which was heavy on the white males by dint of being a 1960s TV show. They'd be freer to add diversity if it had simply been a wholesale reboot, Galactica-style. Then they could have, say, a black McCoy, a female Sulu, whatever. (Khan Noonien Kaur?)
We still have Stella Mudd.
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Old March 8 2013, 08:32 AM   #135
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Christopher wrote: View Post
Really, given the premise that this is an alternate timeline that diverged from the original, they're limited by the character casting of the original, which was heavy on the white males by dint of being a 1960s TV show. They'd be freer to add diversity if it had simply been a wholesale reboot, Galactica-style. Then they could have, say, a black McCoy, a female Sulu, whatever. (Khan Noonien Kaur?)
Yeah, that's crossed my mind more than once. For the 1960's, the TOS cast was pretty diverse. Nowadays, the lack of women is really noticeable. And I have to admit that I think Abrams et al could've made better efforts to incorporate non-stereotypical female characters into the film. But that's a discussion for another sub-forum.

Am I right in remembering that there actually were rumors going around, probably in '07 or '08, that Sulu was going to be reimagined as a woman? I'm pretty sure I remember Graham Kennedy over at DITL running a poll on the question, but I can't remember what motivated him...
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