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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old July 10 2014, 07:26 PM   #961
Enterpriserules
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Ben wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I don't see how it could be the future of the Abramsverse. The likelihood that, in that timeline, any of the characters we're familiar with would even exist at all, would seem to be very low indeed.

Remember the butterfly effect. The existence of Abrams versions of characters like Sisko, Worf, Bashir, etc. is highly suspect - history would have diverged so much that they might never be born. There may not even be a DS9.
If the butterfly effect was an issue, we also wouldn't have ended up with an Enterprise with the exact same cast of characters.
It is a good thing this is fiction then so those kind of things can happen
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Old July 10 2014, 07:30 PM   #962
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

There's the butterfly effect, but there's also the weight of history. Any event has a whole constellation of contributing causes. Sure, in some cases, changing one of those causes will have a positive feedback on the other factors and escalate into a massive change. But in many other cases, there will be a negative feedback and the effects of a change to history will be damped out by the stabilizing influence of all the other, unchanged causal factors.

Poul Anderson used this idea in his Time Patrol series to explain how the past could be changed without having a profound effect on the future or who existed in it. He pointed out that, after a few dozen generations, the amount of genetic material that a given ancestor contributes to your DNA becomes effectively nil, so if they were deleted from history, it might not have any effect on your own odds of being born. Whatever genes a slightly more recent ancestor might have contributed could just as easily have been compensated for by whoever took their place in your family history.

Now, granted, given that only 10,000 of the planet Vulcan's 6 billion inhabitants survived, then the odds are only 1 in 600,000 that any given Vulcan born on their home planet would have survived. But Tuvok, for example, was born on the Vulcanis Lunar Colony in 2264 in the Prime Universe. That means there's a pretty good chance that his parents survived and he was born anyway, although there's no telling whether, say, Selar or Taurik or Vorik would've been born. As for humans, if anyone had ancestors living in downtown San Francisco in 2259, then they might've been casualties of the Vengeance crash and thus not born, but the only Trek character I know of who's a San Franciscan by birth is Hikaru Sulu, who we know is already alive in the Abramsverse. I think it's safe to assume that Sisko's clan has lived in New Orleans for generations. And there's no reason why events in the Federation would affect events in the Bajoran/Cardassian sector, and thus no reason why Terok Nor wouldn't have been built, or why Kira Nerys wouldn't have been born and become a resistance fighter, or why Odo wouldn't have fallen through the wormhole and been found by Dr. Mora, or why Quark and Rom wouldn't have come to Terok Nor to seek their fortunes. And so on.
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Old July 10 2014, 09:47 PM   #963
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I don't see how it could be the future of the Abramsverse. The likelihood that, in that timeline, any of the characters we're familiar with would even exist at all, would seem to be very low indeed.

Remember the butterfly effect. The existence of Abrams versions of characters like Sisko, Worf, Bashir, etc. is highly suspect - history would have diverged so much that they might never be born. There may not even be a DS9.
You may as well ask how the Mirror Universe had the same groups of characters in the same places - especially in DS9/on Terak Nor, after the major effect Kirk Prime's intervention had on Mirror humanity...
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Old July 10 2014, 10:32 PM   #964
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

^ The MU is different - it's an infinite multiverse, after all. So the chance that the MU would turn out like it did is no more or less likely than any other. And as far as we know, nothing in the regular universe created the MU or caused it to diverge: the MU's existence is not dependent on the original.

The Abramsverse, OTOH, diverged while many of our characters (Kirk, Spock, Scotty, etc.) were already alive. So their existence is assured, since they were born before the divergence. None of the characters on TNG, DS9 or Voyager (not even Tuvok) were yet born in 2233, so any one of them could have been altered or wiped from existence.

And the current Abrams year is, what, 2261? That's only 28 years. The likelihood of a greater divergence from the norm expands, exponentially, the further away you get. So the Abrams 24th century is that much more likely to be different than its version of the 23rd.
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Old July 11 2014, 12:28 AM   #965
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

My point was that the entire DS9 cast being present on and around Mirror Terak Nor is more than slightly ridiculous if you start to play Butterfly Effect. Individually, Bajorans like Intendant Kira, Odo, Cardassians like Garak, Klingons like Worf and even the various Ferengi aren't too bad. But all of them? And then you have to jump through SERIOUS hoops to explain Sisko, Jennifer, O'Brien, Bashir EXISTING, and - along with Jadzia - being associated with the station, especially since the Trill somehow ended up with the Mirror Dax symbiont too.

And, ultimately, of course it's not impossible with infinite variations on the same scenarios available. Just very, very, VERY unlikely. And no more so than Abramsverse counterparts of the same characters existing and somehow ending up involved with a certain Nor-class station in whatever circumstances - especially since the latter involves a certain Q.

[And I remain unconvinced that the universe the Narada emerged into was identical to the Prime universe at the moment before its arrival and only then diverged, as opposed to being merely a similar already-alternate universe. Even silly little things like the Gregorian stardates work against it being the dame.]
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Old July 11 2014, 01:01 AM   #966
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

I don't think Mirror Jadzia was joined with Dax though. I think that Curzon didn't die until after Jadzia and Dax went from Curzon directly to Ezri.
I expect most of the 24th century characters would still exist as it offers better story potential, whether it's realistic or not. I'm really looking forward to this.
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Old July 11 2014, 02:35 AM   #967
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

borgboy wrote: View Post
I don't think Mirror Jadzia was joined with Dax though. I think that Curzon didn't die until after Jadzia and Dax went from Curzon directly to Ezri.
As I recall, Mirror Jadzia was never referred to as "Dax" making it possible she was never joined. Ezri definitely wasn't joined, Quark even called her Dax and she said it wasn't her name.

Or are you referring to the novels? In which case, yes, I believe you are right in the MU Ezri was the next Dax host after Curzon.
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Old July 11 2014, 03:22 AM   #968
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
I don't think Mirror Jadzia was joined with Dax though. I think that Curzon didn't die until after Jadzia and Dax went from Curzon directly to Ezri.
As I recall, Mirror Jadzia was never referred to as "Dax" making it possible she was never joined. Ezri definitely wasn't joined, Quark even called her Dax and she said it wasn't her name.

Or are you referring to the novels? In which case, yes, I believe you are right in the MU Ezri was the next Dax host after Curzon.
Sisko called her Dax a couple of times in "Through the Looking Glass".
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Old July 11 2014, 04:07 AM   #969
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

My mistake then. I know one of the MU novellas did have Curzon passing Dax on to Ezri.
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Old July 11 2014, 04:35 AM   #970
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

SoM wrote: View Post
[And I remain unconvinced that the universe the Narada emerged into was identical to the Prime universe at the moment before its arrival and only then diverged, as opposed to being merely a similar already-alternate universe. Even silly little things like the Gregorian stardates work against it being the dame.]
There are dozens of equal inconsistencies between the different works we choose to count as part of the Prime universe. For instance, The Wrath of Khan has some enormous continuity errors vis-a-vis "Space Seed" and TOS, like Khan's people being much younger and more ethnically uniform than they were before, Khan recognizing Chekov, the refugees having movie-era technology and uniform pieces even though they were stranded in the series era, etc. Or there are the massive contradictions between "The Host" and DS9's portrayal of the Trill. If you insist that slight differences are proof of an alternate universe, then you'd have to agree that TWOK is in an alternate universe from "Space Seed," DS9 is in an alternate universe from "The Host," Insurrection (where Data says he's physically unchanged since his creation) is in an alternate universe from "Inheritance" (where Geordi says Data has an "aging program"), etc. The whole idea of a "Prime universe" that encompasses all the TV series and the first ten movies requires a willingness to gloss over inconsistencies and pretend that the different versions of Trek from numerous different creators somehow fit together despite all their contradictions. So it's a double standard to be stricter about the Abramsverse's inconsistencies than about the many equally bad inconsistencies that exist within the Prime "continuity."



Caretaker wrote: View Post
Sisko called her Dax a couple of times in "Through the Looking Glass".
But she looked at him a bit oddly when he did so. Of course, it was meant to be in response to his orders, but it could've been that she was puzzled by the name. And the other person to call her Dax was Jennifer, who met her through Sisko and thus presumably called her what he called her. So it requires squinting a bit, but it can be worked around. (Again, the pretense that a consistent Trek continuity even exists at all requires flexibility about the details.)
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Old July 11 2014, 04:39 AM   #971
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

I do like a consistant continuity when possible, and I do like to reconcile the novels with the tv serieses and movies where possible. I'm pretty open to MU Jadzia not being joined since it's established in the books. It's more interesting anyways imo.
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Old July 11 2014, 03:43 PM   #972
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

If they ever want to do a TNG/DS9/VOY remake that's set in the prime universe, then they will and it'll work and be accepted by the audience.

As for Khan recognizing Chekov in "Space Seed", that can be explained away pretty easily. You could say that Chekov was already on the Enterprise and met Khan offscreen since "Space Seed" took place after "Catspaw" which was Chekov's first appearance.
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Old July 11 2014, 03:58 PM   #973
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

^Of course -- that's the whole point. We've spent decades explaining away and rationalizing the inconsistencies between multiple different Trek productions in order to justify the conceit that they fit together in a single continuity. So there's absolutely no reason we can't do the same with the Abramsverse's discrepancies. The stardates, for instance, are simple to explain away. Maybe that stardate system was in use in 2233, but in the Prime universe it was changed to a different system by 2265, whereas in the Abramsverse the old system was retained. It's such a tiny, easily resolved discrepancy (and it's not like Trek stardates have ever made any sense anyway) that it's bizarre to claim it's some fundamental irreconcilable conflict that forbids the Abramsverse from being an offshoot of Prime.

(And a simpler explanation for Chekov is that he was already aboard the ship in the first season but simply wasn't a bridge officer at the time. After all, there were 430 people aboard and we didn't see every one of them in season 1.)
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Old July 11 2014, 08:25 PM   #974
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
As for Khan recognizing Chekov in "Space Seed", that can be explained away pretty easily. You could say that Chekov was already on the Enterprise and met Khan offscreen since "Space Seed" took place after "Catspaw" which was Chekov's first appearance.
And Vonda McIntyre has a brief scene in the ST II novelization that establishes a friendship between redshirt Chekov and Marla McGivers, which Greg Cox picked up on for the "Khan" trilogy of books.
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Old July 11 2014, 08:53 PM   #975
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

It should also be noted that Chekov in Abrams' Trek is the only member of the big seven who's actually a different person. This Chekov was born four years before his prime counterpart, though he probably has the same parents and a similar upbringing (this could also explain how Anton Yelchin can get away with not looking anything like Walter Koenig). Who's to say that future characters, even ones a century away from being born couldn't come about in a similar fashion... The same people where it counts, but with slightly different circumstances.
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