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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old April 4 2014, 06:03 PM   #766
Enterprise1701
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

BillJ wrote: View Post
Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
BlueMetroid wrote: View Post
I thought the Abramsverse Gorn of the games/comics was handled very well. I even sprang for the numbered statue that was available in the startrek.com shop. It sits proudly in my nerd cave
You accept all the traits of the "Gorn" like that they came from another galaxy?
Why not? Is there anything in the Gorn backstory that contradicts them coming from another galaxy at some point in their past?
An ENT episode had an Orion guy mentioning that the Gorn were the best brewers of a certain drink in local space. In the 22nd century. And the mirror ENT episodes had a Gorn who had been hired by the Tholians. Also in the 22nd century. The game portrays them as an extragalactic race of conquerors who just arrived in Federation territory because of "rips" in space created by an experimental Vulcan technology. But even if you accept that this "extragalactic offshoot" of Gorn existed in the prime reality all along, I think that the Abramsverse guys deny that the Milky Way Gorn Hegemony exists.
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Old April 4 2014, 06:39 PM   #767
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
But even if you accept that this "extragalactic offshoot" of Gorn existed in the prime reality all along, I think that the Abramsverse guys deny that the Milky Way Gorn Hegemony exists.
I haven't played the game or read the comic issue, but I have the opposite impression: That the reason they made these "Gorn" extragalactic and genetically engineered was to avoid direct conflict with what we know about the Gorn of our galaxy.

Also, of course, whatever claims may have been made, I doubt very much that the video game is any more canonical than the comics. Its ideas probably come more from the game developers than from Abrams and his "Supreme Court."

In fact, there was a Gorn extra in one of the deleted Rura Penthe scenes in the 2009 movie. Of course, deleted scenes are no more canonical than tie-ins, but this suggests to me that the "Supreme Court" did intend the Gorn of our galaxy to exist in this timeline, albeit with a modified appearance.
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Old April 4 2014, 06:47 PM   #768
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Christopher wrote: View Post
Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
But even if you accept that this "extragalactic offshoot" of Gorn existed in the prime reality all along, I think that the Abramsverse guys deny that the Milky Way Gorn Hegemony exists.
I haven't played the game or read the comic issue, but I have the opposite impression: That the reason they made these "Gorn" extragalactic and genetically engineered was to avoid direct conflict with what we know about the Gorn of our galaxy.

Also, of course, whatever claims may have been made, I doubt very much that the video game is any more canonical than the comics. Its ideas probably come more from the game developers than from Abrams and his "Supreme Court."

In fact, there was a Gorn extra in one of the deleted Rura Penthe scenes in the 2009 movie. Of course, deleted scenes are no more canonical than tie-ins, but this suggests to me that the "Supreme Court" did intend the Gorn of our galaxy to exist in this timeline, albeit with a modified appearance.
For my part, I deride whoever came up with the Gorn extra you mentioned, whoever came up with the extragalactic Gorn, and whoever created the Blingons.
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Old April 4 2014, 07:54 PM   #769
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Deriding that which is new and different is missing the entire philosophical point of Star Trek. It's also overlooking the fact that ST has constantly reinvented itself over the decades, including redesigning the Klingons many times.
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Old April 4 2014, 08:49 PM   #770
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

At least every Klingon that came after TMP could easily be identified as a Klingon. The Klingon in STID could have been any other race, he does't even remotely look Klingon!
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Old April 4 2014, 10:22 PM   #771
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
For my part, I deride whoever came up with the Gorn extra you mentioned, whoever came up with the extragalactic Gorn, and whoever created the Blingons.
With the exception of the videogame Gorn, that would be Neville Page. You might recognize him as one of the judges on Face Off.
Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
At least every Klingon that came after TMP could easily be identified as a Klingon. The Klingon in STID could have been any other race, he does't even remotely look Klingon!
Not sure if serious.
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Old April 4 2014, 10:49 PM   #772
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Christopher wrote: View Post
Deriding that which is new and different is missing the entire philosophical point of Star Trek. It's also overlooking the fact that ST has constantly reinvented itself over the decades, including redesigning the Klingons many times.
I am well aware of the evolution of Klingon makeup/costumes. That being said, I have an extremely difficult time accepting Blingons.
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Old April 4 2014, 10:54 PM   #773
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
At least every Klingon that came after TMP could easily be identified as a Klingon. The Klingon in STID could have been any other race, he does't even remotely look Klingon!
I don't see where the new Klingon makeup in STID is that much of a change from what we had. It's a much more subtle change than the TOS-TMP-TSFS transition.
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Old April 5 2014, 12:30 AM   #774
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

JD wrote: View Post
I don't see where the new Klingon makeup in STID is that much of a change from what we had. It's a much more subtle change than the TOS-TMP-TSFS transition.
Absolutely. Quoting a post I wrote a while back comparing the various types of Klingon over the years:

Christopher wrote: View Post
"Errand of Mercy": "Alien Mongol" look with brown-green pancake makeup, short hair, bifurcated eyebrows; all Klingons clean-shaven except for Kor and his lieutenant, who wore goatees (more or less).

"Friday's Child": Completely human-looking, with full beard, short hair.

"The Trouble With Tribbles": Still human-looking; goatees on featured Klingons, but some background Klingons beardless.

"A Private Little War"/third season: Back to the dark makeup and bushy eyebrows; goatees and short hair still standard on males, though some extras in "Day of the Dove" have just mustache or soul patch, and at least one is clean-shaven.

ST:TAS: Stylized version of finalized TOS look. Female Klingon with thinner brows, afro-style hair.

ST:TMP: Major redesign: head bald on top, single massive vertebral ridge extends along middle of head; bridge of nose also ridged. Beards, bushy eyebrows retained. Hair medium-short and backswept.

ST III: Single row of vertebrae replaced with wide bony plate, individualized for each Klingon. Noses now smooth. Long-haired look debuts. Female Klingon (Valkris) has much subtler ridges.

ST:TNG/DS9/VGR/ENT (debuting 1987): Much like ST III design, but restoring TMP-style nose ridges. Female ridges now just as pronounced as male, except in hybrids (and in abortive female-Klingon design seen briefly in "Hide and Q," with narrow ridges bifurcating full head of hair).

ST V/VI (debuting 1989): Similar to STIII, but with subtler, less protruding forehead plates. Noses smooth. Females again have very subtle ridges, and Chang barely has any. Long hair and various beard designs still standard, though Chang is bald with slight mustache.

STID: The one Klingon we've seen so far has a cranial plate and ridges similar to the previous three designs, though perhaps a bit more bulbous and with subtler ridges. His eyes seem unusually light, though it's hard to be sure. He is bald and clean-shaven, though reports suggest that others have hair. Ears and (by one report) ridges are pierced, adorned with rings.

The Klingon look has been evolving for decades, and this isn't any more radical than the changes we've seen before. It's still just a variation on the basic design template that's been standard since 1984. The only real novelties are the eye color (apparently) and the piercings and masks.
Really, the only reason some people are objecting to the new design is because it's new -- because they haven't had time to get used to it as they have with all the other, widely varying Klingon designs we've had over the years.
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Old April 5 2014, 12:58 AM   #775
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

At least the klingons look more like klingons than the caitians look like caitians
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Old April 5 2014, 03:11 AM   #776
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

JD wrote: View Post
I don't see where the new Klingon makeup in STID is that much of a change from what we had. It's a much more subtle change than the TOS-TMP-TSFS transition.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. If I had seen the STID Klingon out of context, I never would have guessed that he's supposed to be a Klingon. I wish they had kept the helmets on, which I thought were a brilliant compromise.
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Last edited by Oso Blanco; April 5 2014 at 09:39 AM. Reason: quote corrected
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Old April 5 2014, 03:30 AM   #777
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Christopher wrote: View Post
Also, of course, whatever claims may have been made, I doubt very much that the video game is any more canonical than the comics. Its ideas probably come more from the game developers than from Abrams and his "Supreme Court."
Abrams himself disavowed the game and claimed it hurt STID's box office performance (story). I'd say that tells us all we need to know about the game's canonical value.
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Old April 5 2014, 07:37 AM   #778
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

[QUOTE=Oso Blanco;9442033]
JD wrote: View Post
Oso Blanco wrote: View Post
I don't see where the new Klingon makeup in STID is that much of a change from what we had. It's a much more subtle change than the TOS-TMP-TSFS transition.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. If I had seen the STID Klingon out of context, I never would have guessed that he's supposed to be a Klingon. I wish they had kept the helmets on, which I thought were a brilliant compromise.
Really? I think it would have been pretty clear they were Klingons as long as I knew I was watching Star Trek.
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Old April 5 2014, 02:31 PM   #779
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Yeah, they were obviously Klingons. Like I said, the differences are no greater than those between, say, Lt. Worf's makeup (Michael Westmore design) and Col. Worf's makeup (Richard Snell design) -- and considerably less than the difference between either of those and the TMP Klingons. This is your standard post-1984 Klingon design -- dark complexion, wide bony head plate with a knobbly central ridge and less pronounced ridges along the temples, and a prominent nose.

http://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uplo...ngon_uhura.jpg

Of course there's a difference in execution, but that's because different artists are designing them, and they have every right to bring their own interpretations to the art. It's like in comic books -- the way John Romita, Jr. draws Peter Parker is very different from the way John Romita, Sr. drew him, but they're both meant to be the same face. Ditto for John Byrne's Superman vs. Frank Quitely's. Sometimes fans forget that Star Trek is a creative work, not a documentary, and that creators are allowed to put their own individual stamps on a shared creation. There's no objectively "right" way to design a Klingon, because Klingons are not real things, they are artistic constructs. And the artists who create them have every right in the world to interpret them in fresh ways. Fans who complain about artists being creative rather than slavishly imitative of prior artists' work are biting the hand that feeds them, because if artists weren't free to be creative, the fans wouldn't have anything to enjoy at all.
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Old April 6 2014, 12:34 AM   #780
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Re: IDW Star Trek Ongoing...

Markonian wrote: View Post
the Gorn Hegemony native to Milkyway?
Is there canonical evidence that they are native to the Milky Way?
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