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Old November 27 2012, 12:20 AM   #61
publiusr
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

Also saw Masks again recently. Data by the fire trying to keep warm as the old man.
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Old November 27 2012, 01:38 AM   #62
Dr. Sevrin
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

I am not a fan of 'Sub Rosa' because I dislike romance stories. However, I thought Frakes did the best job I'd ever seen by anyone in the direction and camera angles with Gates McFadden; he really turned her into a sex goddess. His directing of her in the 'Cause and Effect' quarters scenes was also impressive.
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Old November 27 2012, 03:56 AM   #63
Minuet
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

"Masks" is wonderful, weird, and original. Definitely a highlight of the last season.

I wouldn't call "Sub Rosa" a straight romance story. If it was, it would be utterly boring and unTrek-like. To that end, it's actually a fairly inventive science fiction story with a frame of a supposed romance story, which of course devolves into your basic technobabbly alien-of-the-week plot, but not necessarily in a bad way. The set design and costumes were all pretty nice too.

The episodes where the romance feels shoehorned in tend to fail a little, like in some of the earlier episodes with Riker + random alien woman he falls desperately in love with in the space of half a day for no apparent reason except to further the plot. Like, for instance, "The Outcast"...I really want to like this episode. It has a great message. The romance subplot feels utterly forced. Same with "Yesterday's Enterprise." Yar does not sell me on her romance with Lieutenant Hammy McHandsome from the Enterprise-C. Maybe it's a result of their fairly poor acting skills, but then again, maybe it's just because it all felt so forced, like the only reason we believe they are in love is because the plot requires it. There's no chemistry. Don't even get me started about Seven of Nine and Chakotay. That's about when I threw my hands in the air and tuned out Voyager completely.
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Old November 27 2012, 04:22 AM   #64
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

sonak wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


is it really a major character revelation for Archer that he loved his dog? That hardly seems worth an entire episode to me that otherwise is an exercise in character assassination. IMHO, of course. YMMV. ROTFL. LOL. TTFN. MMXII.
Why would it have to be a major character revelation? As you say, we know going in he loves his dog. As I said, I still liked that element of the story.

well if it's not a major revelation, then why have an entire episode based around it? What, are they going to start doing entire episodes based around trivial crap in character's backgrounds? It's like that episode where we discover that.... REED LIKES PINEAPPLE CAKE!!!


Wow, that was certainly worthy of our time. And that was only a subplot, not the whole episode like ANIS was. And it didn't make Reed look like an immature jerk like Archer like ANIS did for Archer.

If you're going to do an episode that's basically a character piece, have it either be something significant about the character or have it be tied to the overall series and that character's continuing development. Otherwise you're basically just farting around.
You do know that nobody forced you to watch the show, right?

Look, I'm not saying it was Trek's best moment. I was just saying being a dog owner and someone who loves dogs, I appreciated the sentimentality of the story, however misguided it was.
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Old November 27 2012, 04:11 PM   #65
sonak
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post

Why would it have to be a major character revelation? As you say, we know going in he loves his dog. As I said, I still liked that element of the story.

well if it's not a major revelation, then why have an entire episode based around it? What, are they going to start doing entire episodes based around trivial crap in character's backgrounds? It's like that episode where we discover that.... REED LIKES PINEAPPLE CAKE!!!


Wow, that was certainly worthy of our time. And that was only a subplot, not the whole episode like ANIS was. And it didn't make Reed look like an immature jerk like Archer like ANIS did for Archer.

If you're going to do an episode that's basically a character piece, have it either be something significant about the character or have it be tied to the overall series and that character's continuing development. Otherwise you're basically just farting around.
You do know that nobody forced you to watch the show, right?

Look, I'm not saying it was Trek's best moment. I was just saying being a dog owner and someone who loves dogs, I appreciated the sentimentality of the story, however misguided it was.

yes, "nobody forced me to watch the show." That's a constructive response to my criticisms.

I like dogs, too.(though I prefer cats) But ANIS was a stupid, pointless episode that makes Archer look like a petulant six-year-old.
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Old November 28 2012, 04:41 PM   #66
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

6079SmithW wrote: View Post
"Masks". For some reason it gets a lot of hate around here. Maybe some think Bret Spiner was overacting? I don't know.
I agree. The mythology behind the premise is the basis of storytelling in human culture. I always thought it was a great example of original thinking on the part of the writers.
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Old November 29 2012, 06:29 AM   #67
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

"Omega Glory" still makes me proud to be an American, just as it did that first time. It was probably Kirk's best soliloquy, IMO.
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Old December 2 2012, 11:42 PM   #68
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

sonak wrote: View Post
well if it's not a major revelation, then why have an entire episode based around it?
I prefer to see ANIS as all about Phlox's grooming habits which are infinitely more interesting than Archer's love of his dog.
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Old December 3 2012, 12:24 AM   #69
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

"Let He Who Is Without Sin". Fundamentalist loonies preaching that the boogeyman is lurking behind every corner and unless the Federation change its hedonistic ways, its all gonna collapse. Sounds like the Religious Right/Tea Party to me.
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Old December 3 2012, 01:25 AM   #70
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

^and you think this episode is unjustly hated?
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Old December 3 2012, 01:30 AM   #71
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

Yeah. I've seen people trashing it for years. To me, its a warning that if you let fear and suspicion run amok, then you ultimately lose your freedoms. Granted, "the Drumhead" handled a similar concept much more successfully, but I have no problem with "Let He..."

Plus Jadzia and Leeta in swimsuits!
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Old December 3 2012, 04:45 AM   #72
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

mythme wrote: View Post
Yeah. I've seen people trashing it for years. To me, its a warning that if you let fear and suspicion run amok, then you ultimately lose your freedoms. Granted, "the Drumhead" handled a similar concept much more successfully, but I have no problem with "Let He..."

Plus Jadzia and Leeta in swimsuits!
"The Drumhead" is an excellent treatise on paranoia and placing power in the wrong hands. It is permanently on my favorites list, if nothing else, for Aaron Satie's "quote".

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Old December 3 2012, 11:44 AM   #73
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

Sector 7 wrote: View Post
"The Drumhead" is an excellent treatise on paranoia and placing power in the wrong hands.
While not hating it, The Drumhead is pretty close to the bottom of my personal "like list," because of it's heavy handedness. Star Trek's message stories are best when they are subtle, and not pounding the audience over the head with "Watch carefully, we're telling you something important now."


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Old December 3 2012, 12:41 PM   #74
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

Alright, I'll throw out some that I KNOW I'll be in the minority about. I LOVE Alexander and any episode that he was featured in. Mainly because I can relate to the sense of being abandoned that he had after he first returned to the Enterprise after being shipped off to Earth then once again when (despite Worf's acceptance that Alexander's path would not be that of a Warrior) he is shipped off again and then left to find his own way.

"First Born" was one of my favorite episodes and I feel that the father/son relationship should not have been put on the back burner for as long as it was after this episode. I mean, until "Sons and Daughters" no one on DS9 even knew that Worf had a son!!
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Old December 3 2012, 12:44 PM   #75
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Re: Most unjustly hated episode

Worf was a terrible father.

You would have thought Jadzia, having experienced being a parent from both genders, would have found this offputting.
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