Babylon 5 vs Deep Space Nine

[Mr Light]

Babylon 5 is my all time favorite television show. DS9 on the other hand hasn't aged well but at the time it was my gateway to sci-fi. The only advantage I would give to DS9 is better pilot, better production values (but I think B5 looks great!), and more personable villains, since B5 villains were usually distant non-characters.

[tomalak301]

Babylon 5 had a much better plot, and stuck with it for most of the series run. DS9 felt all over the place going from the Dominion, to the Klingons, back to the Dominion, and starting with the Bajorans which they abandoned because many complained they were too boring.

DS9 had a better everything else though: commander, cast, and Villain. I kind of wished the Shadows were more developed other than the Evil "What do you want" guys. In fact, I had wished they had used Morden more in terms of "speaking for the shadows" then they had (And I actually just saw his first episode, Signs and Portants" last night). The Dominion were well developed, and had such an array of great characters like Wayoun, the female founder, and the various Jem'Hadar.

I love both shows, but neither are my favorite shows of all time. That honor goes to Farscape, which would wipe out this competition in all four attributes.

[EmoBorg]

Mr Light wrote:

---

The only advantage I would give to DS9 is better pilot, better production values (but I think B5 looks great!), and more personable villains, since B5 villains were usually distant non-characters.

I agree that the Shadows were distant but B5 also had other villains like Mr Morden (sinster), Emperor Cartagia (crazy) and Alfred Bester (malevolent). They were not really distant.

[OmahaStar]

DonIago wrote:

---

The Shadows (well, their ships) were the major reason I got into B5 initially, but as a threat they're vaguely simplistic (EVIL!!!) compared to some of the dynamics of the Dominion...nevermind that those dynamics never got to the point of fundamentally altering the direction of the story.

I call it too close to call.

I have to disagree with this as well. The Shadows were far from one-dimensional, or evil. As with the Vorlons, they have a philosophy that says their way is the right way. Other races will evolve through chaos and disorder. They are helping the universe by introducing the needed chaos. Without them, other races would stagnate and, if anything, de-evolve.

The Vorlons believe in order. They set the rules that others must follow, and are happy to manipulate other races, right down to their genetic structure, to make that happen. They have been manipulating races for millenia, creating racial images and memories that make beings see Vorlons how they want to be seen, inspiring awe and worship.

Neither side is evil, neither side is good. They simply are. Contrast that with the Dominion, which simply wanted to destroy everything that was not like itself. Now those folks were one-dimensional. Ironic for shape shifters.

[DonIago]

While my comparison of the Shadows to EVIL!!! was perhaps a simplification, my point was that while the Dominion had at least three separate races comprising it, all of which were shown on occasion as having their own dimensions and not necessarily being in accord with the whole, the Shadows were never shown as having that level of complexity.

You never saw a Shadow speak out against the rest of its race, for instance.OTOH we saw both Jem'hadar and Vorta who disagreed with the Dominion's overall policy.

[DarthTom]

Mr Light wrote:

---

DS9 on the other hand hasn't aged well but at the time it was my gateway to sci-fi.

I disgree. DS9 has aged substantially better then TNG despite the fact that at the end, both series were overlapping each other. And DS9 IMO has aged better than the lousy CGI during the first couple of years of B5.

One thing I do agree with though is because the whole story for B5 was thought out in advance the overall continuity of the story is better than DS9. However, once the producers decided to make the Dominion war arc the center piece of the the reminder of the 7 years it got better.

[DeepSpaceWine]

I watched both back during their original run. I felt they were both watchable, but then again, I'm not very partisan like that. I watched both DS9 & VOY first-run and enjoyed both and felt each had strengths & weaknesses. I'm not sure how much is many people just being very all-or-nothing vs. there being a very purist but very vocal minority loving their show and hating the main rival. Maybe a lot of people did watch both, but are silent because they don't get so worked up about it.


* Plot:
I felt Babylon 5 had the better plot overall and, even in spite of some pitfalls and boring times (hello Telepath Arc), was overall handled better over the entire series. DS9 was very enjoyable overall, but had some crap (the Klingon detour war. Like a meal of candy, some episodes were very enjoyable upon viewing that episode ["The Way of the Warrior"] but it was a needless detour from all the key players in DS9 (Season 5 on, the Klingons settled into their proper place as a B-tier supporting race in the fight). They were able to salvage it though by weaving it back into the Dominion ("Apocalypse Rising" was very cool).

Other pitfalls were a horrible stretch (funnily enough, also in Spring 1998) and ... hard to explain, the 10-part final chapter, while good, it did kill the energy in the rest of the season (like dead ground around a large tree. Everything got tied into the final arc with not too much able to be done early) along with some crappy eps (but some very good ones too). The Romulans remained bit players in how they were shown unfortunately. B5 had fewer pitfalls, perhaps because so much did plug into greater arcs and things kept moving. I didn't mind the Ferengi episodes at all, BTW (except for "Profit and Lace" & "Ferengi Love Songs").

Of course, there was a downside to B5... very high rate of reruns. 22 episodes a year opened up a block of 3rd-runs. DS9's 26 episode season made for much less waiting between new episodes. Then there was B5's ABSOLUTELY SCREWY & STUPID scheduling.
- Holding back the last few episodes totally killed the momentum that was building up and the chance for some spectacular cliffhangers (e.g. "Z'ha'dum", though "Endgame" would have made for a MUCH better finale than "Intersections in Real Time"). DS9 did this right. They had some great finales that while not cliffhangers like TNG or Voyager, they left a big dangling plot point ("The Jem 'Hadar", "The Adversary", "Broken Link", "Call to Arms" especially).
- Do people know key episodes like "Babylon Squared" & "Chrysalis" only aired once and didn't reair for nearly 3 1/2 years, meaning viewers who joined later had no idea what had happened/couldn't get caught up? The show aired on PTEN's system, which was on a calendar year schedule. B5 tried to transition to a tv-season schedule but got stuck in an awkward in-between position. With many spots for 3rd reruns, especially in 1996, they could have easily picked out the key eps to bring newer viewers up to date.
- But hey, TNT did some stupid things too- "Sleeping in Light" aired the night before Thanksgiving, a night that ratings of other sci-fi shows (I've seen Voyager's numbers along with other shows) take a slight to big hit. I haven't seen B5's Season 5 ratings though. "Sleeping in Light" might be the best series finale to get the smallest audience.

I also think B5 is a bit 'drier', which makes it easier to burn out on as opposed to DS9 (heck, Star Trek as a whole) that remains rather fresh even after extensive viewing. Some of that might be the one downside to serialization (higher interest the first time around at the cost of lower interest other times around, especially after a 2nd viewing to notice the things one missed), some of it is style. B5's style just has something about it that makes it... yeah, it's kind of hard to describe it in words.


* Cast (and Commander):
I felt DS9 had the better cast. Even though Babylon 5 had by far the best actors/characters out of both- Londo & G'Kar, overall DS9's cast was more interesting.

Sheridan was better in any given episode than Sinclair (he did shine at times, but yes, overall he was wooden) but he did come off too much like a hothead. Sisko, especially Season 3+ (and at times in Season 2) was a much more interesting captain.

Ivanova was kind of 'catty' to not get censored here and her tragic past fell flat/didn't seem to connect, whereas Kira did seem like a former militant with an edge who grew up in a nasty occupation (but was readily adapting to turning into an administrator and leaving the guerrilla warfare behind).

Garibaldi was a good character to watch but Odo's character (not to mention his feuding with Quark) and story were far more interesting. A number of Odo's episodes were among the best standalones in the series. Zack very much came off as a background kind of character.

Bashir was far more interesting than Franklin, even ignoring his plot twist and even going beyond his O'Brien friendship dynamic. Franklin just filled the doctor role with not much memorable to do outside the sickbay besides his turn at the descent & redemption rebound that most B5 characters got.

O'Brien was very enjoyable to watch. He was the down to earth everyone and a skilled engineer. B5 didn't have anyone like him (not even a quartermaster or maintenance chief who could have been involved in fixing the station after battles, getting the weapons ready, like imagine a chief engineer melded with a chief tactical officer). Then there's the guilty pleasure, the screw with O'Brien episodes.

Delenn became a pretty good character, good even if she was below Londo & G'Kar in coolness and great story arcs (she got some good scenes though). I did like having Bill Mumy (Lennier) around even if it was a thankless role just to give Delenn another Minbari to talk to. Vir I didn't care for (too much of a bumbling idiot, though the idea of a pure-hearted Centauri amongst an entire retinue of schemers & connivers was good). Marcus came off as a bit of an arrogant bastard, an awkward Frankenstein of flippant loose cannon and singularly devoted adherent. Never cared for Talia. She seemed like

a treacherous plant the entire time, a tightly-wound ice queen that of course would support authoritarian or powerful, shady forces

. Lyta was much better. But all of these couldn't match up with Jadzia Dax (well, pre-Season 5 Dax), Quark, Martok, Garak, Rom. Jake was kind of parallel in stature to Lennier.


* Villains:
I voted for both. Each had their strength and weaknesses. The Dominion were interesting, particularly in how it was set up. Reclusive leaders considered gods or myths by everyone beneath them, genetically engineered soldiers, genetically engineered bureaucrats. Though in keeping it simple, they did sacrifice depth (missing the huge opportunity to bring in the Hunters from "Captive Pursuit" who were the most interesting people pre-"The Jem'Hadar") and we didn't see too much of other races under the Dominion, especially after they were introduced ("Starship Down" comes to mind) so the Dominion did have some abstractness, with it not being clear how member worlds saw it and who they thought was really in charge. The Jem 'Hadar were quite memorable in many episodes, with many sides being presented of what could easily have been a 1-D race of tough cannon fodder, generic white orcs.

The Shadows had awesome ships and "Z'ha'dum" was cool (using Sheridan's wife to get to him, the old human (Justin?) explaining things), but they were rarely-seen CGI creatures. That was by design. It kept them shadowy & mythical, but it also made them closer to the generic ancient race reawakened to cause chaos 1000, 2000, 5000, 10,000 years later. Order vs. Chaos was cool, though there was some disbelief (like a race that old wouldn't mentally mature, both of them) and the First Ones, the idea was cool as 'third parties' but they weren't really fleshed out at all, just these cool mysterious races to try and find, then throw at the enemy like pretty fireworks. The late Season 3- early Season 4 run was excellent though, but the Centauri Cartagia storyline overshadowed the storytelling (though the Shadow-Vorlon War certainly stole all the action).

Really, the Shadows, all we saw were impersonal shadow ships (parallel the Jem'Hadar, but more befitting your generic horde) and Shadow agents/bureaucrats (parallel the Vorta). With Odo & the Female Founder, we got a good understanding of the top race in the villainous entity, but with the Shadows, it was just invisible boogeyman that believe in social darwinism. The Dominion also felt more realistic, like one could kind of imagine a geopolitical entity like that as opposed to the more fantasy/RPG/Tolkienesque ancient evil/hidden civilization singularly driven by an ideology. I love RPGs and it was cool the first time around, but I've been able to appreciate the Dominion story more on 2nd... nth go-arounds.

On the 2nd tier, DS9 still beat B5. The Cardassians were depicted with great depth and complexity in the series. We saw quite a few people, different sides in many episodes, not just Dukat but episodes like "Second Skin", "Tribunal", Garak & the Obsidian Order, et al, and later Dumar. They came off as having more depth than the knee-jerk stock noble warriors the Minbari Warrior Caste or the Clark Earth dictatorship that was more a distant threat than anything. We never really saw much outside of insinuations with Nightwatch; it was just reactionary military types allowing for a civil war space battle to be shown. I loved those episodes in Season 4, but because Earth was effectively to viewers seen as much as what goes on inside North Korea, it was a more abstract threat than real save for the military skirmishes in deep space ("Endgame" is among my top few favorite sci-fi episodes of all time though, easily beating out its VOY, X-Files, SG-1 namesakes). It could have put a human face on the enemy, make up for the Shadows' greatest weakness in storytelling, but Clark might as well have been a Shadow, heck, same goes for any in his regime, like the parallel SS beyond their own one cameo (yeah, they had a big role in that episode, but in the big picture of the series, it was figuratively a cameo, like the Streib [alien Grays who abducted Sheridan]).

Back to Minbar. It may have served Delenn's point that the Worker Caste was invisible and the real builders behind the other castes, but it made them an abstract as well. They should have been introduced to the viewers with some episode showcasing them, like in Season 1 or so. It just seemed like a race filled with a Church-like entity and a bunch of holy warriors with elements of military resentment of civilian-leadership giving the orders. It came off like just an attempted military coup mixed in with an inter-Church schism more than a civil war stemming from an extremely imbalanced society in how it was presented.

I will say that Centauri intrigue was very well done though, mad Emperor Cartagia, the overwhelmed, paranoid little Regent, schemers like Lord Refa. I think the Centauri were the villains with the most depth in B5, better than Earth, Minbar, or the Shadows. Londo's dealings with 'the devil' (Vir's crowning moment of awesome scene), and the payback from the 'imps' that succeeded the 'devils' and the Centauri Season 5 arc were very well plotted. I think of all the big war/villain arcs (Shadow, Minbar, Earth, Centauri), it was the one with the fewest downsides or weakpoints.

[teacake]

DS9 can only wish it was as complex as Babylon 5.

Babylon 5 can only wish it looked as neat and put together as DS9.

[Trimm]

DS9 obviously benefits from superior production values, but B5 at its peak was far more compelling storytelling.

[teacake]

Trimm wrote:

---

DS9 obviously benefits from superior production values, but B5 at its peak was far more compelling storytelling.

I agree completely.

[EmoBorg]

One of the things that i liked about Babylon 5 is that Earth became a bad guy under President Clark.

A planet sized North Korea complete with the propaganda and anti alien isolationist elements. Political opposition figures are arrested, tortured, made to confess and sent to prison. Human Colonies that opposed the Martial Law decree by President Clark are bombed and blockaded untill they surrendered.

It took an alliance of humans from Mars, Babylon 5 and other human colonies, renegade Earth Military personnel and their alien allies to bring down President Clark.

The scenes of earth vessels fighting earth vessels in episodes like Point of No Return and Severed Dreams were memorable.


4:38

[Bisz]

Interesting poll.

I gave better plot to B5. It had a story to tell from the start and it told it. I like DS9's plot very much but there is no question that B5 was planned, and I enjoyed that.

For cast, there is no doubt in my mind that DS9 had the better cast, there were some real stinkers on B5. That said, B5 did have Mollari and G'Kar, and Peter Jurasik and Andreas Katsulas alone are able to elevate the acting to the point where I voted for both shows in this category

Sisko get the nod for better hero. I'm not a fan of Sherida, I preferred Sinclair.

Dominion gets the vote for baddies, Jeffrey Combs as Weyoun is fantastic and you have to count Marc Alaimo as Dukat and Casey Biggs as Damar in the baddie camp and there is no question that these three characters, portrayed by these three actors are more compelling antagonists than wavy shadow spiders.

So, B3 = 2, DS9 = 3.

I love both these shows!

[Orac Zen]

Plot: B5, by far. It fell into a hole in the fifth season, of course, but for me DS9 fell into a hole much earlier and didn't recover. YMMV, of course.

Cast: Hmmm. B5 had Jurasik and the superlative-beyond-belief Katsulas, who were (IMO, anyway) by far the best actors in either series. Furlan is a far better actress than she's generally given credit for. DS9 had Robinson, Auberjonois, Meaney and Visitor. Both series had some truly dreadful actors as well. This is the one area in which I reckon DS9 almost shades B5.

Commander: B5, by far. I detested Sisko. I could envision wanting to follow Sinclair and Sheridan anywhere. I wouldn't follow Sisko into a room, never mind anywhere else.

Villains: B5, by far. The Shadows had a credible motive. The Dominion's was pathetic - it basically amounted to little more that "they're mean to us because we're different, so let's kill 'em". I didn't find that anywhere near as interesting or compelling as the Shadows.

Holdfast wrote:

---

The thing is, at its peak, B5 captivated my attention & interest more than DS9.

Bingo. For various reasons, DS9 just didn't do anything like as much for me as B5 did. It never put me on the edge of my seat, never made me feel I had to know what happened next. I did enjoy the first few seasons but after that...eh. To each their own but B5 compelled me to keep watching. DS9 did not. Simple as that. Or, simple as this:

Trimm wrote:

---

DS9 obviously benefits from superior production values, but B5 at its peak was far more compelling storytelling.

Bingo again.

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

What I loved about Babylon 5 was the wonderful concepts. They had some really amazing concepts. What I couldn't stand about B5 is that most of them got dropped halfway through like a sack of potatoes, never to be revisited again. There were only a couple of arcs that seemed to play themselves out completely, like "The One."

What I loved about DS9 was that even though they didn't deal with as many great, larger than life, concepts, they managed to do more with the less that they tackled in terms of things playing out to some kind of satisfying resolution. Even though things weren't as planned as B5, this series took some time to work on what it did and that showed. Plus, the look of it was better.

DS9 had the better cast, but B5 had some wonderful and intriguing aliens in Londo, G'Kar, and Kosh. I also liked the human cast as well. Both the Dominion and the Shadows had their strengths and weaknesses, but I like them both equally, so I voted for them both. DS9 had the better commander in my book.

[EmoBorg]

One of the most epic moments of babylon 5.


1:27