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Old November 12 2012, 05:31 PM   #31
Lost Periphery
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Lost Periphery wrote: View Post
I have no clue who this is directed to (me I'm assuming), but the challenge is not really fair. All that is part of the superhero trope.
[...]

But, um, yeah not sure really if that the answer you wanted or not.
The bolded part was the answer I was after. Now you have your answer, too.
Um, sure. Thanks for that then.
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Old November 12 2012, 06:16 PM   #32
Lost Periphery
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

I didn't, and wasn't defining redemption. Where did you even get that from? I don't think he needs redemption. I was asking you personally why you think he needed redemption. Are you purposely being obtuse?
No, I'm simply trying to have an intelligent discussion. But clearly you're trying to have a petty argument. It saddens me that so very many people on this supposed discussion board have no idea how to have a civil and mature disagreement. But once it becomes clear to me that the other party in a discussion only wants to fight, I walk away, because that's the last thing I want. Goodbye.[/QUOTE]

Wait. Seriously I meant no jab by that. It was a legit question. I asked you why you thought he needed redemption and you responded with, well what you responded with. I know you are a smart guy so I was really puzzled by that.

During this whole discussion, you tried to counter my views with assumptions on how things should be sprinkled with cut and paste facts on subjects up to state-to-state interpretation. Cool. That's your thing. I knew that going in when responding to you. Then you make a broad assumption about me personally. I didn't get mad. I was more shocked if anything.

But please, please do not leave a discussion under a pretense of "pettiness" and "other people's inability to engage in civil conversations," when nothing really calls for such sensitivity on your part. You really shouldn't be making parting shots at somebody under a pretense; you are doing the very same thing that is supposedly causing you to leave. That is a very blatant hypocrisy.
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Old November 12 2012, 06:20 PM   #33
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

^Well, you did call him obtuse.
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Old November 12 2012, 06:22 PM   #34
Mister Fandango
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Lost Periphery wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Lost Periphery wrote: View Post
I have no clue who this is directed to (me I'm assuming), but the challenge is not really fair. All that is part of the superhero trope.
[...]

But, um, yeah not sure really if that the answer you wanted or not.
The bolded part was the answer I was after. Now you have your answer, too.
Um, sure. Thanks for that then.
Since it's apparently going over your head: No, Ollie isn't particularly insane. Having a secret identity, lying through your teeth to the people you love, and inadvertedly putting those same people at risk while pursuing your crime-fighting crusade is all part of the superhero trope. Batman, Superman, Iron Man, etc. all do it on a regular basis. And in their respective movies, they were typically the only superheroes revealed to exist, too, even though that isn't necessarily the case. Just like it isn't in Arrow.

Hell, the only real difference between Ollie and Batman is that Ollie doesn't have qualms about ending his opponent's life if they deserve it. Which, honestly, is less crazy than Batman. Look at all the death and destruction Batman allowed to happen by not putting a cap in the Joker's ass on day one.
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Old November 12 2012, 06:23 PM   #35
Lost Periphery
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

sojourner wrote: View Post
^Well, you did call him obtuse.
Nope. I asked was he purposely being obtuse. There is a distinction.
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Old November 12 2012, 06:37 PM   #36
Lost Periphery
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Lost Periphery wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
The bolded part was the answer I was after. Now you have your answer, too.
Um, sure. Thanks for that then.
Since it's apparently going over your head: No, Ollie isn't particularly insane. Having a secret identity, lying through your teeth to the people you love, and inadvertedly putting those same people at risk while pursuing your crime-fighting crusade is all part of the superhero trope. Batman, Superman, Iron Man, etc. all do it on a regular basis. And in their respective movies, they were typically the only superheroes revealed to exist, too, even though that isn't necessarily the case. Just like it isn't in Arrow.

Hell, the only real difference between Ollie and Batman is that Ollie doesn't have qualms about ending his opponent's life if they deserve it. Which, honestly, is less crazy than Batman. Look at all the death and destruction Batman allowed to happen by not putting a cap in the Joker's ass on day one.
Really, nothing is going over my head. There are degrees. That makes everything you say academic. There is a difference between, say Spider-man and the Punisher. The end results are the same in way: they both take down bad guys or gals. But when Spider-man takes down a criminal there is a chance of him getting back on the streets. When the Punisher takes out somebody, chances are that person will never take breath again. That is a big degree of difference there.

And I don't think Ollie falls into the superhero trope--yet. Right now he is a hitman.
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Old November 12 2012, 06:41 PM   #37
Mister Fandango
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Has a secret identity? Check.
Wears a costume? Check.
Has a secret lair? Check.
Has abilities far beyond those of his peers? Check.
Fights crime? Check.
Goes out of his way to save lives? Check.

Not sure what else you need to count as a superhero. Especially since in the same breath you're throwing around figures like the Punisher as one.
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Old November 12 2012, 06:46 PM   #38
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Good stuff. Glad to see this has sparked a bit of debate.
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Old November 12 2012, 07:02 PM   #39
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Let's try this another way: Name one superhero who's not a nutjob to one degree or another. Just the act of putting on tights and wearing your underwear on the outside in order to fight crime throws the vast majority of them into the whacko camp alone.
In our world, yes. Or in a world like most superhero TV/film adaptations where the hero is unique in employing such methods, it does suggest a certain eccentricity. But the flaw with this argument as applied to the characters in the original comics (or most animated adaptations) is that what they do is not rare or eccentric in the worlds they occupy; it's actually fairly normative in those universes for freelance crimefighters to don tights, capes, or otherwise colorful costumes. It's no more "whacko" in the context of such a universe than it is for a football player to wear a colorful uniform with lots of padding and a number printed on the back, or for a man going to a formal event to wear an uncomfortable tuxedo. It's just the culturally accepted, standardized form of attire for that particular role or undertaking.

And can we please bury that "underwear on the outside" meme? They're trunks. The conventions of comic-book superhero costumes were based on the costumes worn by circus strongmen and acrobats in the '30s and '40s, which did in fact entail trunks worn over tights (presumably for modesty) and often involved capes as well (though those would've generally been for display and would've probably been removed prior to any major physical exertion). It's not insane to dress that way, just retro. It's no worse than a Civil War re-enactor dressing up in 1860s attire.

Of course, in the show, Ollie doesn't wear tights or trunks. He wears the same garb worn by his island benefactor, presumably for tribute as much as concealment, and he wears a "mask" of green face paint to maintain anonymity. It seems reasonably well justified.


Assuming you can think of some, ask which one of those never lie or otherwise manipulate people in order to achieve their goals. Hell, it might be easier to start here.

The only one I can almost consider is Captain America. That's pretty much it.
There are lots of superheroes that don't have secret identities, more commonly in the Marvel Universe than DC. The Fantastic Four have never hidden their identities. The Avengers were originally fairly secretive about their identities, not even sharing them with each other, but these days they're generally fairly well-known. Captain America actually did keep his identity secret in the early comics, and in fact probably violated all sorts of military regulations by going AWOL to fight crime in his superhero identity, not to mention calling himself a captain when he was actually a private (unlike the movie where he was made an honorary captain). So he was hardly a bastion of honesty in the '40s comics.
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Old November 12 2012, 07:17 PM   #40
Lost Periphery
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Has a secret identity? Check.
Wears a costume? Check.
Has a secret lair? Check.
Has abilities far beyond those of his peers? Check.
Fights crime? Check.
Goes out of his way to save lives? Check.

Not sure what else you need to count as a superhero. Especially since in the same breath you're throwing around figures like the Punisher as one.
Ok. All those things make Ollie a superhero. Now, based on what's been shown so far, let's take away two of your "Checks."

Fights crime. I say he is not. He is going after people in a very particular hit list. As stated before, it unknown if these people are power players or just clogs. He is going after vengeance. Punishing them for what they did or are still doing, but his is punishing them. Stopping them just seems an aftereffect. Again, this is how I am seeing things.

Now the second of your "Checks:"

Goes out of his way to saves lives. What lives has he gone out of his way to save? The man up for execution? I believe that was just to get to the man on the Hit List.

So in my interpenetration of Ollie I've already discounted two pretty core things in a making of a hero.

And now I will add a "Check" of my own.

Kills to get to people on a List? Check.

So the new list

Has a secret identity? Check.
Wears a costume? Check.
Has a secret lair? Check.
Has abilities far beyond those of his peers? Check.
Kills to get to people on a list? Check.

Does that still sound like a hero?

And what happens if these people are not fully black and white evil? But only on the List because they happened to be laundering monies through their banks? Or shredding evidence? Or something they did once!

And what of the aftereffects? If Starling City is that corrupt and he is taking out heads, wouldn't that destabilize the whole structure of the city?

Again, and I can't stress this enough: this is how I am interpreting the show and it's characters. I love it because it is very dark. I would have never thought a show with such serious implications could be on the same network as Gossip Girl.
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Old November 12 2012, 07:42 PM   #41
sojourner
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Lost Periphery wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
^Well, you did call him obtuse.
Nope. I asked was he purposely being obtuse. There is a distinction.
No, not really. It was just a passive aggressive way to call him obtuse.
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Old November 12 2012, 07:54 PM   #42
Lost Periphery
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

sojourner wrote: View Post
Lost Periphery wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
^Well, you did call him obtuse.
Nope. I asked was he purposely being obtuse. There is a distinction.
No, not really. It was just a passive aggressive way to call him obtuse.
Still nope. The distinction stands. It was in relation to his answer, not him. So please lay off throwing around assumptions of passive aggressive actions. And even if it was interpreted in such a way, I have made the intention of that question clear, twice.
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Old November 12 2012, 08:05 PM   #43
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Lost Periphery wrote: View Post

Still nope. The distinction stands. It was in relation to his answer, not him. So please lay off throwing around assumptions of passive aggressive actions.
Then you shouldn't have used the personifying "you".

Are you purposely being obtuse?
No assumption needed.
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Old November 12 2012, 08:32 PM   #44
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Pretending not to understand in order to switch to another, more congenial, easier to defend topic, is passive aggressive. These things are very hard to judge on a bbs, absent personal interaction, however.

One topic that was evaded was the question of whether the supposed moral redemption arc posited exists in anything show on screen, even as hints? Or whether the show intends for us to accept Ollie Queen's crimes as justified? Everything I've seen indicates, particularly the behavior of other characters toward each other, very strongly that we are intended to accept the justifications offered.

For example, any guards killed in the raid on Adam Hunt's offices are deemed worthy of death for resisting Hoodie's onslaught. It's seems probable (if you can use any standards about a show with such disdain for reality,) that some could just have been Diggles with the wrong bosses.

Certainly the show holds steadfastly to the great conservative moral principle that some people are worth more than others. I believe that the victims will invariably be held to be guilty, and worthy of death, on Hoodie's say so. On the other hand, they endlessly harp on Oliver's supposed guilt (Hoodie has none!) in merely inviting a girl on a cruise. The differences are that the Lances are for whatever reason deemed real people, and that the real offense is sexual: Cheating on his girl friend.

I find it very hard to take this kind of thinking as a genuine attempt to write moral redemption. I don't think it's an issue at all. I think we are supposed to enjoy the killing of the untermenschen and assuage our consciences with Hoodie's emotional suffering over it.

A deathbed repentance is better than no repentance at all. Oliver could redeem Robert by publicizing his confession. There is no true need for any of these shenangans other than the fun (such as it is) of them.

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Old November 12 2012, 09:20 PM   #45
Mister Fandango
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Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Lost Periphery wrote: View Post
Ok. All those things make Ollie a superhero. Now, based on what's been shown so far, let's take away two of your "Checks."

Fights crime. I say he is not. He is going after people in a very particular hit list. As stated before, it unknown if these people are power players or just clogs. He is going after vengeance. Punishing them for what they did or are still doing, but his is punishing them. Stopping them just seems an aftereffect. Again, this is how I am seeing things.
So stopping from committing crimes and/or punishing them for their past crimes isn't fighting crime? You certainly have a strange belief system.

Goes out of his way to saves lives. What lives has he gone out of his way to save? The man up for execution? I believe that was just to get to the man on the Hit List.
And you're clearly not paying attention to the show. Just off the top of my head, he's saved Dinah and Dig, plus all the people indirectly rescued from the current and future dealings of these crime bosses.

Kills to get to people on a List? Check.
Punisher kills. Tons of superheroes have killed. The Punisher, Deadpool, Thor, Wolverine, Cyclops (after being ordered to by Wolverine no less), Spider-Man, The Flash, Batman, and hell even Superman himself (General Zod, Quek-Ul, and Faora; those were flat-out executions). Hell, even the comic book version of the Green Arrow himself has killed people.

So the new list

Has a secret identity? Check.
Wears a costume? Check.
Has a secret lair? Check.
Has abilities far beyond those of his peers? Check.
Kills to get to people on a list? Check.

Does that still sound like a hero?
A typical superhero in the darker/grittier side of the spectrum? Yes. It sure does sound like one.

And what happens if these people are not fully black and white evil? But only on the List because they happened to be laundering monies through their banks? Or shredding evidence? Or something they did once!
"Oh, you only murdered that innocent little girl once? Okay, you're off the hook!"

You may have also missed the part where he's done some investigating himself regarding the people on the list. He doesn't just pick a name at random then hunts then down and executes them like you so desperately wish he was in order to justify whatever point you're trying to make.

And what of the aftereffects? If Starling City is that corrupt and he is taking out heads, wouldn't that destabilize the whole structure of the city?
The criminal side of things, sure. But that's the whole point of what he's doing. These are organized crime figureheads. Not upstanding government officials.

Again, and I can't stress this enough: this is how I am interpreting the show and it's characters.
The point you're painfully missing is that your interpretation isn't the correct one.
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