RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,772
Posts: 5,434,260
Members: 24,840
Currently online: 520
Newest member: Reece101

TrekToday headlines

Trek Comics Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

German Volkswagen Campaign Features Trek Actors
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

Shatner And Nimoy In Trek 3?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

The Art of John Alvin Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

Episode Four of The Red Shirt Diaries
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Star Trek: The Compendium Review
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Orci Drops Rangers Project
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Retro Review: Image in the Sand
By: Michelle on Sep 20

Star Trek: Shadows Of Tyranny Casting Call
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

USS Vengeance And More Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 8 2012, 07:35 PM   #1
Othello
Commodore
 
Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Anyone else here find themselves rooting for detective Lance over Oliver Queen/Arrow? I personally find that Oliver is still a self absorbed jackass after the island regardless of whether he feels he's "pretending" now or not. I root for the man who sees a self absorbed jackass who cheated on his daughter with his other daughter who was killed while doing so and still sees a self absorbed jackass. And Oliver is still a jackass cause, to my mind, he's more interested in USING Lance's dislike of him than anything else. He tells himself he cares about what happens to others around him but it's another self absorbed lie.
Othello is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 07:49 PM   #2
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Clearly this isn't meant to be a clear-cut good-guy/bad-guy narrative. Oliver and Quentin Lance are both flawed and multifaceted characters. Oliver isn't the most likeable person right now; he's psychologically scarred from his ordeal and on a dark path, and he's cold, manipulative, and ruthless in pursuit of his mission. But it looks like the story of the series, or at least of the first season, is about his journey of redemption, as the people close to him help him to rediscover his humanity. Quentin is also starting out scarred by the same tragedy, and similarly driven and obsessed as a result of his pain, so they're kind of mirrors of each other. They both have journeys ahead of them, and that's part of what makes the show so interesting.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 08:23 PM   #3
sojourner
Admiral
 
sojourner's Avatar
 
Location: I'm at WKRP
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Yep, at some point in the series I think Ollie will go through a course correction and become more hero and less vigilante.
__________________
Baby, you and me were never meant to be, just maybe think of me once in a while...
sojourner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 08:45 PM   #4
Icemizer
Fleet Captain
 
Icemizer's Avatar
 
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Please its not like Lances daughter was a twelve year old or anything. Dad should realize she is as much to blame as anyone in that situation. Detective Lance is just being dragged down by her death and the fact the he failed his wife when she needed him the most. Probably more the latter than the former as that is something that is directly his fault.
Icemizer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 08:50 PM   #5
sojourner
Admiral
 
sojourner's Avatar
 
Location: I'm at WKRP
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

^You don't have kids do you?
__________________
Baby, you and me were never meant to be, just maybe think of me once in a while...
sojourner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 09:43 PM   #6
Othello
Commodore
 
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Christopher wrote: View Post
Clearly this isn't meant to be a clear-cut good-guy/bad-guy narrative. Oliver and Quentin Lance are both flawed and multifaceted characters. Oliver isn't the most likeable person right now; he's psychologically scarred from his ordeal and on a dark path, and he's cold, manipulative, and ruthless in pursuit of his mission. But it looks like the story of the series, or at least of the first season, is about his journey of redemption, as the people close to him help him to rediscover his humanity. Quentin is also starting out scarred by the same tragedy, and similarly driven and obsessed as a result of his pain, so they're kind of mirrors of each other. They both have journeys ahead of them, and that's part of what makes the show so interesting.
Don't get me wrong- I love the show and see what they are going for. That said, I find Oliver extremely unlikeable now and almost, and maybe even to, the point where I'd consider him irredeemable.

And they also better take a REALLY long time before they put him and Laurel together. I find her closeness to him now pretty unrealistic. You can only suspend disbelief so much.
Othello is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 8 2012, 10:15 PM   #7
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Oliver's no saint, to be sure. But we saw in the flashbacks this week that he was willing to endure torture to protect a man he barely knew, and that was when he was still the spoiled rich kid and had yet to endure most of the hardships that changed him. That shows he has some basic decency.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2012, 04:22 PM   #8
LaxScrutiny
Commodore
 
Location: Toronto, Canada
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

sojourner wrote: View Post
^You don't have kids do you?
I have kids. I love them unconditionally, but I also have to respect that they make their own decisions, they make their own mistakes, sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they are jackasses. If they break the law, or screw someone over, or make a choice to fuck someone they shouldn't, they aren't "right" because I love them, and I don't stop loving them because they did something wrong. So I think Icemizer makes a good point.
LaxScrutiny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 9 2012, 06:48 PM   #9
sojourner
Admiral
 
sojourner's Avatar
 
Location: I'm at WKRP
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

What did she do wrong besides dying? Who is Lance going to blame for her dying?
__________________
Baby, you and me were never meant to be, just maybe think of me once in a while...
sojourner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 10 2012, 09:30 PM   #10
Mach5
Rear Admiral
 
Mach5's Avatar
 
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

It's kinda hard to really root for Oliver, because he keeps acting as the judge, the jury, and doesn't hesitate to go for the capital punishment. Sooner or later, he's gonna murder a man, jut to find out that he was actually innocent.

But this does give his story some spice. It's interesting to see a show about an anti hero for a change.
__________________
"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines."
― Bertrand Russell
Mach5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 10 2012, 09:56 PM   #11
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Yeah, I don't think we're supposed to be rooting for Oliver per se, at least not yet. He's starting his journey in a dark place and I think he has some learning to do yet.

But the ending of this week's episode is really the first time we've seen Ollie "execute" someone as punishment for their crimes, and even that was only implied. We've seen him kill to protect his anonymity, and we've seen him kill in self-defense, although the majority of the henchmen he's shot were reportedly only wounded, according to both dialogue and common sense. (Arrow wounds are typically survivable unless you're hit in a vital area or fail to stop the bleeding. Even fiction, which usually treats shooting or stabbing wounds as far more instantly lethal than they realistically would be, frequently portrays arrow wounds as survivable -- how many times have we seen heroes pulling arrows out of their shoulders/legs/etc.?) Usually he just threatens or coerces the bad guys into confessing, replaying stolen money, or the like.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2012, 12:51 AM   #12
Eduardo
Commander
 
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

So, to nitpick...

Oliver's plan... so he knew the camera in a previous episode was there, and decided to get caught in film, so the police would suspect him, arrest him and Diggle would be able to cover for him proving he wasn't Arrow...

And he decides to put this plan in motion BEFORE he recruits Diggle at all... a recruiting that was motivated by having to get him to the "Arrowcave" after being shot with curare bullets by Deadshot.

All of which happened AFTER he set "the plan" in motion.

Either Oliver has clairvoyant powers or an incredible amount of dumb luck.
__________________
You aren’t the online one
Eduardo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2012, 01:42 AM   #13
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

^Or he intended to bring Diggle into his confidence all along, and what happened with Deadshot only accelerated his timetable.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2012, 10:23 PM   #14
Lost Periphery
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Lost Periphery's Avatar
 
Location: My Room-State
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Christopher wrote: View Post
Oliver's no saint, to be sure. But we saw in the flashbacks this week that he was willing to endure torture to protect a man he barely knew, and that was when he was still the spoiled rich kid and had yet to endure most of the hardships that changed him. That shows he has some basic decency.
I don't believe it was due to decency. I think it was an extreme form of dependency and even insanity. Ollie's whole world was turned around so violently and so quickly that when the first person to help ease his mental burden came around he submitted to him fully.

Even after being tortured then rescued he still wanted to go out to protect/fight along side the only stability and hope he had in his life at that point.

Dying for your rescuer is not a sign of anybody operating with a high moral grounding but a very case book example of Dependent Personality Disorder.
__________________
Once, when I was younger, I got into an accident.
It destroyed all my sensory nerve endings.
To make up for it, my daddy bought me a satellite.

--SATELLITE GIRL
Lost Periphery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11 2012, 10:39 PM   #15
Lost Periphery
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Lost Periphery's Avatar
 
Location: My Room-State
Re: Arrow- Detective Lance vs Oliver Queen/Green Arrow

Eduardo wrote: View Post
So, to nitpick...

Oliver's plan... so he knew the camera in a previous episode was there, and decided to get caught in film, so the police would suspect him, arrest him and Diggle would be able to cover for him proving he wasn't Arrow...

And he decides to put this plan in motion BEFORE he recruits Diggle at all... a recruiting that was motivated by having to get him to the "Arrowcave" after being shot with curare bullets by Deadshot.

All of which happened AFTER he set "the plan" in motion.

Either Oliver has clairvoyant powers or an incredible amount of dumb luck.
Christopher wrote: View Post
^Or he intended to bring Diggle into his confidence all along, and what happened with Deadshot only accelerated his timetable.
I think getting Diggle into his plan, um planned or not, was the first sane thing he did since coming back from the island. Even if Ollie kinda messed it up at first by trying to get his help by deceit. He knows enough to know that a lone gunman approach will never work.

I do wonder if Diggle wasn't forced on him by his family, would he have gone to Laurel with the same purpose?

Ollie is on the starting path of balance, and I love this show because, so far, he is stumbling to it.
__________________
Once, when I was younger, I got into an accident.
It destroyed all my sensory nerve endings.
To make up for it, my daddy bought me a satellite.

--SATELLITE GIRL
Lost Periphery is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
green arrow

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:04 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.