It's official! Neil Gaiman episode to feature...(spoilers)

[Ghost Bones]

Green Lantern wrote:

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So you prefered them when they were wearing tin foil to actual metal?

All they've done is make the metal more segmented so it looks like the strap on my grandad's watch. It's also a straw man to suggest the only alternative is tin foil. I think the best-looking Cybermen in the show ever are the Revenge of the Cybermen Cybermen, who looked smooth and not so bulky. Now of course to our modern eyes there are bits that look silly there, but a reworking of that more slender outline is what I'd go for, not the stomping twatters we have now and will continue to have.

Cutter John wrote:

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C'mon, its Bones. Of course he hates it.

Uhurrrhurrrrhurrrhurrrrhurrrr.

[Green Lantern]

Cutter John wrote:

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C'mon, its Bones. Of course he hates it.

Good point! :P

Ghost Bones wrote:

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All they've done is make the metal more segmented so it looks like the strap on my grandad's watch. It's also a straw man to suggest the only alternative is tin foil. I think the best-looking Cybermen in the show ever are the Revenge of the Cybermen Cybermen, who looked smooth and not so bulky. Now of course to our modern eyes there are bits that look silly there, but a reworking of that more slender outline is what I'd go for, not the stomping twatters we have now and will continue to have.

Uhurrrhurrrrhurrrhurrrrhurrrr.

[Ghost Bones]

What are you getting at? You think you're banging your head against a wall when someone makes a reasoned elaboration? Fuck's sake.

[Psion]

Ghost Bones wrote:

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All they've done is make the metal more segmented so it looks like the strap on my grandad's watch. It's also a straw man to suggest the only alternative is tin foil. I think the best-looking Cybermen in the show ever are the Revenge of the Cybermen Cybermen, who looked smooth and not so bulky. Now of course to our modern eyes there are bits that look silly there, but a reworking of that more slender outline is what I'd go for, not the stomping twatters we have now and will continue to have.

I've never found any incarnation of Cybermen especially believable. The "stompers", while of higher production value than anything out of original Who, are just too bulky, robotic, and homogeneous. I'd like a design that looks less mass-produced. For this reason, I don't share most fans' aversion to the Lisa Hallet design in Torchwood. Sure, it sucked, but the idea that her partial conversion resulted in a unique look improved the effect.

Star Trek's Borg are a better representation of what the Cybermen are supposed to be: menacingly upgraded biological entities. Even their first appearance in "Q Who" is handsprings and cartwheels better than any attempt in Doctor Who -- old or new. The big difference between Cybermen and Borg is that the Borg completely surrender their identity to the hive mind Collective, but the Cybermen still retain some individuality.

There was one thing I really liked about their appearance in "The Tenth Planet" that hasn't been done since: the Cyber-leader actor would hold his mouth open while another actor provided his voice. It's such a simple trick, but the effect really made the character fascinating and menacing. Especially if, as someone else mentioned, one considers the fabric parts of their costumes to be surgical bandages. For all the spare parts and flashlights look of those Cyber costumes, they're actually among my favorites.

[Green Lantern]

I find it a real shame the last episode of the tenth planet is lost, it means we can never view the serial in full. Plus, it's both the first appearance of the cybermen, and the first regeneration ever on screen.

[Sindatur]

Green Lantern wrote:

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I find it a real shame the last episode of the tenth planet is lost, it means we can never view the serial in full. Plus, it's both the first appearance of the cybermen, and the first regeneration ever on screen.

Though, the Reconstruction is really, really good. The Telesnaps change so frequently, it is almost easy to forget it's a reconstruction.

[Redfern]

Psion wrote:

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...but the effect really made the character fascinating and menacing. Especially if, as someone else mentioned, one considers the fabric parts of their costumes to be surgical bandages.

I wish I could remember who stated that upon OutPost Gallifrey over 6 years ago. He really deserves credit for changing my perception of that original design.

But let's remember that despite their superficial similarity, the core motivations for the Borg and the Cybermen are rather different. The Borg thrive for "perfection". But what drives the Cybermen is far more primal, survival. Here's a race of people who effectively d*mned themselves while trying to prevent extinction. Getting metaphysical, you might say they lost their souls in an attempt to save themselves. They're animated corpses that can't comprehend they are, for all practical purposes, already dead. A Borg can be "unplugged" from the Collective and in various circumstances, become an individual again. Various eps of "next Gen'" and "Voyager" have demonstrated this. The success rate in reversing full Cyber-conversion is far, far less. You're just so much walking long-pork.

Sincerely,

Bill

[Psion]

Redfern wrote:

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... The Borg thrive for "perfection".

Did you ever think this was a lame motivation? I thought it was lame ... one of those ridiculous notions introduced by the writing staff on Voyager, it no doubt sounded cool at the time, but it hardly makes sense as a species motivation. At their introduction, they sought unique technology to add to their own enhancement. Later, the focus became "biological and technological distinctiveness". That was a healthy tool-user's interest exaggerated to unhealthy extremes by the Borg Collective. It made them both menacing and logical. But "perfection"? What is that beyond an aesthetic pursuit? Perfection is ultimately a subjective evaluation, unless you're talking about physical quantities (like a perfect vacuum).

Redfern wrote:

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But what drives the Cybermen is far more primal, survival. Here's a race of people who effectively d*mned themselves while trying to prevent extinction. Getting metaphysical, you might say they lost their souls in an attempt to save themselves. They're animated corpses that can't comprehend they are, for all practical purposes, already dead.

Yes! This sounds very interesting and distinct from the Borg in the sense that the Borg were a viable, poweful, almost instinctive force of nature with nothing short of demigods as natural threats. The Cybermen always used to teeter on the edge of oblivion.

Redfern wrote:

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A Borg can be "unplugged" from the Collective and in various circumstances, become an individual again. Various eps of "next Gen'" and "Voyager" have demonstrated this. The success rate in reversing full Cyber-conversion is far, far less. You're just so much walking long-pork.

Yep. They flirted with this in that Torchwood episode. And again with Craig when he proved love conquers all. But I think you're confusing your species-level metaphor with the individual when you suggest each Cyberman is walking dead. As a race, the Cybermen have been clinging to life since their introduction ... beaten down by the universe itself and almost, but not quite, driven to extinction. They're past their expiration date, but hanging around in the fridge of life only through shear luck and unmitigated gall. But each Cyberman is different, and there might be some dramatic gristle to chew if you can fish out some viable morsels from that old bowl of Cyberstew.

I'm reminded of the final episode of Galactica:1980 when I think I'd love to see an episode where the Doctor encounters a lone Cyberman and tries to rehabilitate him. Her.

It?

[Steve Mollmann]

The Doctor travelled with a Cyberman companion in the DWM comics, though that Cyberman was rehabilitated before the Doctor came along.

[Redfern]

I'll concede the point as I have not seen any TorchWood. I knew the series depicted a partially converted Cyber(wo)man, but I didn't know her fate.

Sincerely,

Bill

[Green Lantern]

Sindatur wrote:

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Though, the Reconstruction is really, really good. The Telesnaps change so frequently, it is almost easy to forget it's a reconstruction.

Is it on DVD?

[DWF]

Psion wrote:

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Did you ever think this was a lame motivation? I thought it was lame ... one of those ridiculous notions introduced by the writing staff on Voyager, it no doubt sounded cool at the time, but it hardly makes sense as a species motivation. At their introduction, they sought unique technology to add to their own enhancement. Later, the focus became "biological and technological distinctiveness". That was a healthy tool-user's interest exaggerated to unhealthy extremes by the Borg Collective. It made them both menacing and logical. But "perfection"? What is that beyond an aesthetic pursuit? Perfection is ultimately a subjective evaluation, unless you're talking about physical quantities (like a perfect vacuum).

Actually I think that might've been introduced in First Contact not on Voyager.

[DWF]

Green Lantern wrote:

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Is it on DVD?

No, but it is on tape if you can still find it.

[Psion]

DWF wrote:

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Actually I think that might've been introduced in First Contact not on Voyager.

No, I'm pretty sure it was first expressed in the Voyager episode, "The Omega Directive". Where First Contact stumbled was in the introduction of a Borg Queen to give the drones a dramatic focus and a face. Both were bad ideas that undermined the novelty of the Borg concept.

[Sindatur]

Green Lantern wrote:

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Is it on DVD?

Don't think so, but, I've transferred mine to DVD. Try the streaming sites like Youtube and Dailymotion. I think one of them has many of the Reconstructions available to watch