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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old June 23 2013, 10:25 PM   #526
The Wormhole
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

JD wrote: View Post
Haven't there been references to the Starfleet Marines in either screen productions or novels? I swear I've heard that term used in universe somewhere.
As for the uniforms, do you mean something along the lines of the undershirt from the Abramsverse? I could see that working myself.
Not really. There are behind the scenes sources which describe the guys in blue shirts in Trek V as Marines, but they weren't described as such on screen. In Enterprise's early planning stages Malcolm Reed was described as a "Starfleet Marine" though that was dropped by the time production began. Otherwise, the term "Starfleet Marine" hasn't been used in anything official.

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^I did describe the admiral's stripes in Chapter 1: "five alternating wide and narrow stripes." I assume that, as with the captain's stripes, the wide ones are on the outside, so it'd be wide, narrow, wide, narrow, wide.
Are there Commodores, Rear Admirals and Vice Admirals in Starfleet in this era, with combinations of wide and narrow stripes ?
Starfleet did have the separate flag grades during Enterprise's run. Admiral Forrest was a Vice Admiral and we saw him as a Commodore in First Flight. Admiral Leonard in Broken Bow was a Rear Admiral. So I'd say there's enough evidence to say "yes."
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Old June 23 2013, 10:57 PM   #527
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post

Is there an active link to the upgraded NX series ships, Christopher?
It's essentially Doug Drexler's NX-refit design which was featured in the 2011 Ships of the Line calendar.
You included it in your novel? Awesome sauce!

Still more than a day until it's on my kindle. Hope the time flies.
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Old June 23 2013, 11:25 PM   #528
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Haven't there been references to the Starfleet Marines in either screen productions or novels? I swear I've heard that term used in universe somewhere.
As for the uniforms, do you mean something along the lines of the undershirt from the Abramsverse? I could see that working myself.
Not really. There are behind the scenes sources which describe the guys in blue shirts in Trek V as Marines, but they weren't described as such on screen. In Enterprise's early planning stages Malcolm Reed was described as a "Starfleet Marine" though that was dropped by the time production began. Otherwise, the term "Starfleet Marine" hasn't been used in anything official.
I've heard speculation that Colonel West from ST VI could be a Marine, given his non-naval rank.
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Old June 23 2013, 11:48 PM   #529
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

I'm inclined to think that Starfleet Marines cease to exist at some point, primarily because they're conspicuous by their absence.
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Old June 24 2013, 12:54 AM   #530
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

^ You don't have to mention everything all the time.

Besides, Marines will simply never cease to exist.
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Old June 24 2013, 01:11 AM   #531
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher I have read far enough to see what caused the problem. Doug's site is down but I found an image that is close to your description. Too bad that ship was not on the cover.
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Old June 24 2013, 01:46 AM   #532
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Maybe next time...
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Old June 24 2013, 01:21 PM   #533
The Wormhole
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Haven't there been references to the Starfleet Marines in either screen productions or novels? I swear I've heard that term used in universe somewhere.
As for the uniforms, do you mean something along the lines of the undershirt from the Abramsverse? I could see that working myself.
Not really. There are behind the scenes sources which describe the guys in blue shirts in Trek V as Marines, but they weren't described as such on screen. In Enterprise's early planning stages Malcolm Reed was described as a "Starfleet Marine" though that was dropped by the time production began. Otherwise, the term "Starfleet Marine" hasn't been used in anything official.
I've heard speculation that Colonel West from ST VI could be a Marine, given his non-naval rank.
True, though he did wear a Starfleet uniform with the rank insignia of an Admiral. A Colonel is basically equal in rank to a naval Captain, and one would think that if there were Starfleet Marines they'd have some differences between their uniforms and the Starfleet standard.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:09 PM   #534
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Only because there are marines in Earth's forces doesn't mean they are part of Federation Starfleet as well. It is made of several species with a longer military tradition in space than Humans. Maybe to Tellarites, Andorians and Vulcans marines are superfluous or anachronistic?

The Federation is not a homo sapiens-only club.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:20 PM   #535
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Is there anything in canon stating that The Federation only has one service - Starfleet ? Could they not have a military/peacekeeping force that absorbed the marines ?

Just because we only saw Starfleet personnel acting in The Dominion War doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any...does it ?
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Old June 24 2013, 02:24 PM   #536
Charles Phipps
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Is there anything in canon stating that The Federation only has one service - Starfleet ? Could they not have a military/peacekeeping force that absorbed the marines ?

Just because we only saw Starfleet personnel acting in The Dominion War doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any...does it ?
I assume planets would have their own forces, unless membership requires you to disarm them.

Still the above is why I support the idea the Macos were folded into security personnel. The supposition there's Marines leads to more suppositions which leads to more suppositions all to support the central premise. Oddly, the central premise isn't wrong IMHO, I just think the Security Personnel *ARE* marines. Just renamed marines who also handle MP work.

As for Colonel West, he could have been part of Earth Security or have an honorary title from his home planet.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:34 PM   #537
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Markonian wrote: View Post
Only because there are marines in Earth's forces doesn't mean they are part of Federation Starfleet as well. It is made of several species with a longer military tradition in space than Humans. Maybe to Tellarites, Andorians and Vulcans marines are superfluous or anachronistic?

The Federation is not a homo sapiens-only club.
True, things shouldn't be kept just because humans do them, but in this case it's more a matter of practicality. "Marines" are a specialized case of infantry, i.e. ground troops -- specifically those attached to naval operations or involved in amphibious warfare. In an interstellar setting, with starships as the basis for any travel from planet to planet, it stands to reason that any infantry -- troops assigned to fight on planet surfaces or conduct boarding operations on enemy ships or stations -- would most likely be the equivalent of marines.

Now, if we're talking SF universes or futurism in general, one could suggest that the very concept of ground troops might eventually become obsolete, with drones taking their place altogether. In that context, there'd be no infantry and thus no marines. But Star Trek has always been oddly devoid of robots, and the norm has always been to employ live security guards/troops. So it would make sense, at least hypothetically, that there could or even should be a specialized infantry force that would most likely be called either marines or naval infantry. (Although the etymological purist in me insists that starship infantry should be called "Celestines" instead. Except then they sound like a religious order.)

Again, though, Trek canon doesn't support that view; what we've always seen is that the same security personnel handle both shipboard duties and an infantry-like role. But then, this isn't necessarily a problem. Historically, quoth Wikipedia, "The Marine Corps was founded to serve as an infantry unit aboard naval vessels and was responsible for the security of the ship and its crew by conducting offensive and defensive combat during boarding actions and defending the ship's officers from mutiny." This doesn't sound too different from the role of starship security officers, although mutiny in Starfleet is reportedly a near-unprecedented occurrence. And in modern times, US Marines serve as security at US diplomatic posts abroad. So I'm comfortable with the idea that Starfleet Security already is essentially a marine/infantry force by default. Indeed, one could argue that that's their primary function, and that the kind of ship-to-ship tactical role we've seen characters like Worf and Tuvok perform is in addition to that basic infantry-type role.
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Old June 24 2013, 02:37 PM   #538
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

What he said.

Edit:

But yes, I figured Starfleet Security was supposed to be pretty badass. Tasha Yarr says their training is the best in the galaxy. It's just they're usually facing down things which can't be defeated physically.

While this is mostly Roddenberry, also, I could see an in-universe attempt to remove Starfleet's military connotations. Part of the nature of exploration and diplomacy as Starfleet's chief thing would include reassuring people they're not being invaded. Stating they're just "security" and not marines might actually be a bit of political senstitivity.
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Old June 24 2013, 05:15 PM   #539
hbquikcomjamesl
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Hmm. Almost halfway through, and you've got a lot of plot threads running concurrently. Without leaving the reader confused. So far, quite good.
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Old June 24 2013, 08:11 PM   #540
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

My personal take has always been that Starfleet is a USO (Unified Service Organization) basically taking all of the varies military organizations and blending them into one (mostly) seamless whole. Therefore there really are not MACO's or Marines, or Navy, nor Andorian Guard nor Vulcan Protectorate or Tellarite Fuzzy Wuzzies. There's just Starfleet which has elements of all of them.

Quite honestly I have never liked "Colonel West" and quite honestly given what we saw go on and what was invented in DS9, I personally just dismiss him as a Section 31 agent who they fed the President a line of bull about since I figure that your average civilian in the 23rd and a half century is as knowledgeable about Starfleet and its inner workings as most of us would be about today's military, plus I imagine that any government leader relies on experts to brief him and if you spend too much time doubting those same experts the job is going to get infinitely more difficult than it already is. In this case sadly President Ra Ghoretti got scammed.
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