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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old April 23 2013, 04:22 AM   #436
Christopher
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

ATimson wrote: View Post
If the UFP Starfleet's ranks were distinct, that would be one thing. But they're (at least for the officer ranks) identical to US Navy ranks. I don't see any reason to assume there was a "zig-zag" in the lineage instead of just letting that straight line go through.
You're forgetting that there was no lieutenant junior grade rank in TOS -- it went straight from ensign to lieutenant. And commodore was evidently phased out sometime in the movie era. So there's already precedent for Starfleet changing its rank structures over time.


I'm not convinced it was conscious. I don't recall (nor has anybody posted in the thread that I noticed) any proof from the show that there those ranks didn't exist.
They designed four pins for four ranks. Design reveals intention. If they'd wanted there to be a lieutenant commander's rank, they would've designed a rank pin system that included it, that would've had some recognizable gap to allow for it even if it wasn't seen. And surely it would've been seen somewhere in the course of 98 episodes, even if just on a background extra.

And "no proof it didn't exist" is a nonsensical argument when talking about a fictional series. If you postulate the existence of something beyond the canon, that's something new that you are making up and adding to the fiction, like I do when I make up a new character or a new alien world. And such a creation ought to serve a purpose. I see no reason to add this particular idea to the fiction, especially when it clashes with the insignia design. It's a poor fit. And I don't see what benefit there is to it, what you gain by having it, other than conformity to what other Trek series have done, and where's the value in conformity?
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Old April 23 2013, 05:07 AM   #437
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

ATimson wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
And I don't see why it's desirable. Why insist that Earth Starfleet do everything exactly the same way the UFP Starfleet does?
If the UFP Starfleet's ranks were distinct, that would be one thing. But they're (at least for the officer ranks) identical to US Navy ranks. I don't see any reason to assume there was a "zig-zag" in the lineage instead of just letting that straight line go through.
That depends on whether you accept Fleet Captain as a rank, or just a position. I like to think it is a distinct rank in TOS, just because it makes things a little different than our present-day naval rank structure.

Christopher wrote: View Post
You're forgetting that there was no lieutenant junior grade rank in TOS -- it went straight from ensign to lieutenant.
Although it was never called out by name, there does appear to be a Lieutenant J.G. rank in TOS. The only example we ever saw was Joe Tormolen, who wore a single broken line of braid in "The Naked Time".

Now, it may be that Lieutenant J.G. was removed from the structure by TMP, because IIRC they changed the ensign braid to a single broken line for that movie. But then it would have been back again by TWOK.

Christopher wrote: View Post
And commodore was evidently phased out sometime in the movie era. So there's already precedent for Starfleet changing its rank structures over time.
If we accept the Fletcher design notes, then IIRC, the commodore rank wouldn't have been phased out until sometime after the movie era, but before TNG. My memory could be a little shaky on this one, though.

Christopher wrote: View Post
I see no reason to add this particular idea to the fiction, especially when it clashes with the insignia design. It's a poor fit. And I don't see what benefit there is to it, what you gain by having it, other than conformity to what other Trek series have done, and where's the value in conformity?
I agree with this. Actually, one of the things I liked about the Cardassian rank structure on DS9 was that it seemed to be a very simplified structure (Glinn -> Gul -> Legate) that was different than the fleets of the other nations. But then the novels added Dalin, Dal, and Jagul (and the DS9 Technical Manual added Gil), so now I think the Cardassians have just about as many grades as everyone else. (Although I would have preferred if the novels had left Glinn immediately under Gul, since we saw Damar promoted from Glinn to Gul.)

EDIT follows:

ATimson wrote: View Post
I'm not convinced it was conscious. I don't recall (nor has anybody posted in the thread that I noticed) any proof from the show that there those ranks didn't exist.
I'm not sure about this, but did we see Kelby as a lieutenant before he took over as Chief Engineer after Tucker left? Once he was in the position, he was a commander, but I can't remember if we saw him at a different rank before that.

Not that it would be completely conclusive anyway, I guess, since you could always say he was bumped up two ranks.

Last edited by Avro Arrow; April 23 2013 at 05:18 AM. Reason: Added question about Kelby
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Old April 23 2013, 02:16 PM   #438
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

^^Kelby was first seen in Affliction where he was already chief engineer and his rank was commander. He stayed a commander in all his apppearances, even after Trip returned to the Enterprise. The only excpetion is the Mirror Universe where Kelby was an ensign.

I'll admit, the exclusion of Lt. Commanders probably wasn't intentional at first, especially since Reed was originally going to hold that rank. But obviously costuming or props never made any pips a different colour in the first season when that sort of thing would have been done and in the later seasons it was probably considered too much of a bother when the characters they wanted to be juniour lieutenants of Lt. Commanders could just as easily be full lieutenants or commanders.
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Last edited by The Wormhole; April 24 2013 at 02:53 AM.
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Old April 23 2013, 05:17 PM   #439
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
I'm not sure about this, but did we see Kelby as a lieutenant before he took over as Chief Engineer after Tucker left?
No.
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Old April 23 2013, 08:32 PM   #440
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post
You're forgetting that there was no lieutenant junior grade rank in TOS -- it went straight from ensign to lieutenant. And commodore was evidently phased out sometime in the movie era. So there's already precedent for Starfleet changing its rank structures over time.
Christopher, I agree with your basic premise in this discussion, but I just want to differ slightly with you on this point. There was an apparent Lieutenant Junior Grade rank in TOS, as evidenced by the broken braid on Joe Tormolen's cuff in "The Naked Time." We know that Ensign denoted by no braid (see Chekov) and a solid braid signified Lieutenant (Uhura and Sulu). There would appear to be some grade between the two:



EDIT: I see Avro Arrow beat me to it!
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Last edited by Kertrats47; April 23 2013 at 10:08 PM. Reason: Grammar and syntax
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Old April 23 2013, 09:41 PM   #441
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post
I see no reason to add this particular idea to the fiction, especially when it clashes with the insignia design. It's a poor fit
Poor fit? Really?

It's exactly the same method they used in TNG. Solid pips and hollow pips. Same story here. A 'hollow pip' in ENT's time frame would simply be a hollow square. There's nothing awkward about that. It wouldn't clash with anything.
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Old May 18 2013, 02:46 PM   #442
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Just per-ordered my copy on iBooks.
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Old May 18 2013, 06:41 PM   #443
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

I pre-ordered this novel. I hope we can get a chance to read a sample chapter on the pocket books site or Amazon.com from this book in the next few weeks.
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Old May 23 2013, 04:52 AM   #444
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

I don't wanna sound too lazy to pour through 30 pages of posts to find this, but...what date is the book due out?
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Old May 23 2013, 04:58 AM   #445
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

^About a month from now.
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Old May 23 2013, 02:21 PM   #446
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

I haven't read either of the Romulan War books, are they required reading for this book?
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Old May 23 2013, 02:36 PM   #447
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

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I haven't read either of the Romulan War books, are they required reading for this book?
No. If you wanted to read them anyway, you should read them first, because ROTF spoils some things about them; but you certainly don't need to read them prior to reading ROTF. I'm starting a new story. There's a gap of over a year between the end of the previous book and this one, because I wanted to make a fresh start.
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Old May 23 2013, 05:20 PM   #448
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post
nickyboy wrote: View Post
I haven't read either of the Romulan War books, are they required reading for this book?
No. If you wanted to read them anyway, you should read them first, because ROTF spoils some things about them; but you certainly don't need to read them prior to reading ROTF. I'm starting a new story. There's a gap of over a year between the end of the previous book and this one, because I wanted to make a fresh start.
Christopher how long did it take you to write this novel and how many rewrites or changes does a manuscript go through before your novel is finally published?
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Old May 29 2013, 03:25 PM   #449
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Let me preface this by saying that RotF will be my first experience reading a Christopher Bennett book as soon as it's published. Since this is the case, I've always been able to follow each chapter I read by reading the corresponding annotations on his website. I enjoy the insight and revelations into what I just read -- also, the Easter eggs are nice to have pointed out, whether I was able to find them myself or not. As much as I'm looking forward to reading this book (which I most definitely am), I'm just as much looking forward to reading the annotations as well.

That being said, Christopher, do you have a certain period of time elapse between the release date of a book and the posting of your annotations? Are they generally concurrent or do you have a selected timeframe that you usually follow? Is there any way that one could bribe you to post them the day of release?

As you can tell, I'd prefer to read them as close to release date as possible but I'd also just like to know when your readers can expect them to hit the Interwebs.

Thanks.
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Old May 29 2013, 03:46 PM   #450
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Sto-Vo-Kory wrote: View Post
That being said, Christopher, do you have a certain period of time elapse between the release date of a book and the posting of your annotations?
I generally prefer to, yes, since the annotations contain spoilers.

...do you have a selected timeframe that you usually follow?
When I can get around to it, basically. Right now I'm in the middle of writing ROTF Book 2, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to get the annotations done anytime soon.
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