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Old November 8 2012, 03:14 PM   #151
Captaindemotion
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post
Ahh, but what you're forgetting is that the Giant Space Egg came first!

...Or did it?
I heard that the chicken came first but that it was faking it.
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Old November 8 2012, 06:13 PM   #152
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

I think it was the egg that was faking it, but Chris are you going to Star wars Trek up or hard science it or what's the difference between the two? And if April and Pike are captains of Kirk's ship, are you really that dedicated to that Akira class P38 design NX-01 ship or was that whole experimental class deemed a failure. It was ugly. GR's universe was beautiful. Do we have to have ugly, dark and gritty?

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Old November 8 2012, 08:08 PM   #153
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

I wonder whether the Kzinti might be mentioned? There inclusion into Trek lore seems a tricky issue. They and Earth were in conflict some "200 years" before 2269 (TAS: The Slaver Weapon)
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Old November 8 2012, 08:26 PM   #154
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Markonian wrote: View Post
I wonder whether the Kzinti might be mentioned? There inclusion into Trek lore seems a tricky issue. They and Earth were in conflict some "200 years" before 2269 (TAS: The Slaver Weapon)
But this novel takes place nearly a century after that. So I don't think there's really a need to mention it.
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Old November 8 2012, 08:45 PM   #155
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

BillJ wrote: View Post
But this novel takes place nearly a century after that. So I don't think there's really a need to mention it.
Yes, you're right. When I posted I thought it fell in this timeframe. Should've looked it up before I opened my mouth.
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Old November 8 2012, 08:49 PM   #156
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

I guess the fact that many bring up various things that don't fall into this time frame speaks to how ripe it is for filling in in some way ...
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Old November 8 2012, 08:50 PM   #157
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Markonian wrote: View Post
I wonder whether the Kzinti might be mentioned? There inclusion into Trek lore seems a tricky issue. They and Earth were in conflict some "200 years" before 2269 (TAS: The Slaver Weapon)
That would only happen with Larry Niven's blessing, and I'm not sure he'd be inclined to grant it, particularly since there's been a spate of new Known Space novels over the past few years co-written by Niven and Edward Lerner, the Fleet of Worlds series, so it's a going concern again. I tend to feel that Trek and Known Space should remain their own distinct universes anyway.

Despite that preference, I have actually given some thought to whether TSW's backstory could somehow be tweaked in a way compatible with currently known Trek history, and I just couldn't see it. We know from "Terra Nova" that Earth's first interstellar colony was founded in 2078 and failed five years later, and we don't know how much later it was that Alpha Centauri, Vega, and other worlds were colonized. But it does seem that Earth expanded rather slowly in those early decades, and that the Vulcans were overseeing them rather closely, and probably protecting them from potential threats. The Earth we saw at the start of ENT was quite naive about interstellar contacts, probably because of Vulcan sheltering; Archer and his crew didn't know much about other races and didn't expect they'd run into many hostile aliens. If they'd been through a series of wars against a vicious race of spacegoing tigers in the previous century, they wouldn't have had such rosy expectations.
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Old November 8 2012, 10:23 PM   #158
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Very excited for this news. An era I've always found interesting. Never read the whole "Year One" but the few serials in the trek books I read at the time were pretty good.
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Old November 8 2012, 11:21 PM   #159
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Hm, wasn't the Federation war with the M'dok (the thinly veiled Kzinti substitute in The Captains' Honor) in the 22nd century?

Also, the war with the Tarn (from The Forgotten War) was either in the 22nd century or the 23rd, depending on which dating cues you believe.
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Old November 9 2012, 11:18 AM   #160
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post
Markonian wrote: View Post
I wonder whether the Kzinti might be mentioned? There inclusion into Trek lore seems a tricky issue. They and Earth were in conflict some "200 years" before 2269 (TAS: The Slaver Weapon)
That would only happen with Larry Niven's blessing, and I'm not sure he'd be inclined to grant it, particularly since there's been a spate of new Known Space novels over the past few years co-written by Niven and Edward Lerner, the Fleet of Worlds series, so it's a going concern again. I tend to feel that Trek and Known Space should remain their own distinct universes anyway.

Despite that preference, I have actually given some thought to whether TSW's backstory could somehow be tweaked in a way compatible with currently known Trek history, and I just couldn't see it. We know from "Terra Nova" that Earth's first interstellar colony was founded in 2078 and failed five years later, and we don't know how much later it was that Alpha Centauri, Vega, and other worlds were colonized. But it does seem that Earth expanded rather slowly in those early decades, and that the Vulcans were overseeing them rather closely, and probably protecting them from potential threats. The Earth we saw at the start of ENT was quite naive about interstellar contacts, probably because of Vulcan sheltering; Archer and his crew didn't know much about other races and didn't expect they'd run into many hostile aliens. If they'd been through a series of wars against a vicious race of spacegoing tigers in the previous century, they wouldn't have had such rosy expectations.
Yes both the United Earth Foreign ministry and the Starfleet Intelligence were not doing their job yet. Perhaps this is why Section 31 had to go into the high gear in the 2150s.

As to the peaceful nature of humans. We know that it took till 2130s that United Earth was formed, by the 2070s the people were still barbaric. So I don't see humans defending themselves against 4 fleets (= 4 "wars") in the very early decades of the 22nd century that implausible, after all it would be several generations before the unification is done and humans become such as we see them.

On the other hand there was an untold number of unsanctioned colonies (Moab comes to mind but there were surly others more in line with this premise) to the known (Terra Nova, AC, Deneva ...) and/or transplanted humans. So is it not likely that the Kzinti were feuding with these? Although than the Sirius in the Treaty of Sirius has to have an other meaning than the star.


Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
Hm, wasn't the Federation war with the M'dok (the thinly veiled Kzinti substitute in The Captains' Honor) in the 22nd century?

Also, the war with the Tarn (from The Forgotten War) was either in the 22nd century or the 23rd, depending on which dating cues you believe.
The character ages make only the 23rd century believable. the 22nd century is too early and a war this early in the Federation history would have shaped the society in a wrong way.
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Old November 9 2012, 11:23 AM   #161
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post
If they'd been through a series of wars against a vicious race of spacegoing tigers in the previous century, they wouldn't have had such rosy expectations.
And, I'd say that a raid on the people of Earth could still be a raid on an early Earth colony world.
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Old November 9 2012, 12:26 PM   #162
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
Hm, wasn't the Federation war with the M'dok (the thinly veiled Kzinti substitute in The Captains' Honor) in the 22nd century?
IIRC, there were two "Man/M'dok wars" - one before and one after the founding of the Federation. Sadly, even the cut-down pseudo-Kzinti don't fit into ENT's version of the 22nd century.
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Old November 10 2012, 05:30 PM   #163
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
Hm, wasn't the Federation war with the M'dok (the thinly veiled Kzinti substitute in The Captains' Honor) in the 22nd century?
IIRC, there were two "Man/M'dok wars" - one before and one after the founding of the Federation. Sadly, even the cut-down pseudo-Kzinti don't fit into ENT's version of the 22nd century.
Can you tell me where you are getting this? According to Picard in the Captain's Honor, there was one war in the past and he feared starting a second.


Christopher, by the way, why are you creating a new uniform, or even a single Starfleet, directly after the Federation's founding? Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the Mirror Universe and to a lesser extent the story 'A Less Perfect Union' actually show that the TOS-era Starfleet was a successor to/extention of the Earth Starfleet (although it could be the Chicken and the Egg scenario).


If you have already thought out an answer and will use it in the book then I will let myself be surprised.
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Old November 10 2012, 05:44 PM   #164
Markonian
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Hando wrote: View Post
Christopher, by the way, why are you creating a new uniform, or even a single Starfleet, directly after the Federation's founding? Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the Mirror Universe and to a lesser extent the story 'A Less Perfect Union' actually show that the TOS-era Starfleet was a successor to/extention of the Earth Starfleet (although it could be the Chicken and the Egg scenario).
Well, maybe it was easier for the Andorians, Tellarites and Vulcans to adopt the visual style of the Earth newcomers instead of those of their former longstanding enemies. No historical taint, so to say.
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Old November 10 2012, 06:28 PM   #165
Christopher
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE — RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Hando wrote: View Post
Christopher, by the way, why are you creating a new uniform, or even a single Starfleet, directly after the Federation's founding? Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the Mirror Universe and to a lesser extent the story 'A Less Perfect Union' actually show that the TOS-era Starfleet was a successor to/extention of the Earth Starfleet (although it could be the Chicken and the Egg scenario).
Obviously Earth Starfleet is one of its primary antecedents, but it doesn't make sense that it would be the only one. It's not like the other members' space fleets/services would've just evaporated. As I said in my initial post, they may have made greater contributions to the Federation Starfleet than is superficially apparent.

The Mirror Universe's 23rd-century ships presumably looked the way they did because they were copying the Defiant's technology. As for the ALPU timeline, we couldn't actually see the ships, so there could've been differences in the tech that weren't evident on the page.

Besides, why not make a change? This is the start of a new era in Trek history. I'm not just doing more ENT, I'm showing the beginnings of the institutions we got to know in TOS and beyond. This is called Rise of the Federation, after all. The new uniforms are symbolic of a new beginning, both in-story and metatextually.

Not to mention that changing uniforms is kind of a Starfleet tradition. Kirk's crew went through four different uniform designs in 20 years -- pilot, TOS, TMP, and TWOK. Picard's crew has been through almost as many in a comparable span of time -- TNG seasons 1-2, the slight variant design from seasons 3-7, the DS9 fatigues used in GEN, and the FC-style uniforms. Archer and crew wore the same basic uniforms for a decade -- I say they're due for a change.

As for the timing, the Starfleet Academy seal introduced in TNG specifies a founding date of 2161, so I'm kind of locked in there. But that doesn't mean there isn't a process of transition and evolution to be explored.
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