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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: Was the ending Deus Ex Machina?
Yes 24 37.50%
No 40 62.50%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 3 2012, 01:31 AM   #136
Christopher
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Okay, one more time: "deus ex machina" as a literary term does not mean "using gods to solve the problem." That's what it originally meant two thousand years ago. We do not live in Ancient Greece, so that is not the correct way to define the term. It means using any gratuitous plot device that comes out of nowhere to solve the problem without any prior setup in the story. If the gods were set up earlier in the story, then their involvement in the solution is not a deus ex machina.
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Old November 3 2012, 03:41 AM   #137
DWF
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Okay, one more time: "deus ex machina" as a literary term does not mean "using gods to solve the problem." That's what it originally meant two thousand years ago. We do not live in Ancient Greece, so that is not the correct way to define the term. It means using any gratuitous plot device that comes out of nowhere to solve the problem without any prior setup in the story. If the gods were set up earlier in the story, then their involvement in the solution is not a deus ex machina.
So while the Prophets were set up from the start of the series, they weren't in the Dominion war story arc until this ep.

DEMs were used all the time, it's strange that only recently it's somehow become associated with bad storytelling. If they're done well nobody notices or even cares, Doctor Who's Pyramids Of Mars is a great example of a DEM that works and few people notice or care about.
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Old November 3 2012, 09:26 AM   #138
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

^and the fact that they weren't used in the Dominion story line upto that point doesn't mean a thing.
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Old November 3 2012, 01:05 PM   #139
DWF
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
^and the fact that they weren't used in the Dominion story line upto that point doesn't mean a thing.
Yes it does, Star Trek has created a number of Godlike beings who jsut as easily have ended the war if they cared including Q and the Organians, there's all kinds of plot elements out there for them have used. In the end they picked one and ended that part of the story arc but the Dominion war continued and outside of a final battle with the Pah Wraiths they have very little to do with the rest of the series.
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Old November 3 2012, 06:56 PM   #140
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

^Yes but the prophets were of Bajor, they sent visions of what would happen to Bajor a plague of locusts(?)

As for having very little to do with the rest of the battle, who knows how many times after the wormhole alines intervention the dominion tried to send ships through to see if they could make it.
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Old November 3 2012, 09:34 PM   #141
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
As for having very little to do with the rest of the battle, who knows how many times after the wormhole alines intervention the dominion tried to send ships through to see if they could make it
We never heard again of any Dominion/JemHadar ships coming through the wormhole, I personally took that to mean that the Prophets were "disappearing" Dominion ships as a on-going thing.

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Old November 3 2012, 10:40 PM   #142
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

It was mentioned in a later episode the Prophets were keeping the Dominion from sending any more ships through.
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Old November 4 2012, 12:18 AM   #143
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

^I thought it was just that the Dominion was afraid to risk sending any more ships through for fear that the same thing would happen to them.
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Old November 4 2012, 04:38 PM   #144
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

The Founders caring about losses? Most likely they'd send more through just so make sure it wasn't a one-time thing.
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Old November 5 2012, 05:22 AM   #145
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Yeah, I can't see the Founders worrying overmuch about the loss of ships or soldiers, and could see them sending fleets through the wormhole despite the loss. They're not stupid, though, either, and I can't see them figuratively pounding their head against a brick wall to no avail.
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Old November 5 2012, 05:50 AM   #146
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Sure, just send a few squadrons through to check. Then stop.
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Old November 5 2012, 06:23 AM   #147
Tiberius
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Ti-BOO!-rius wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
One good DEM is from one of the most popular episodes, The Best of Both Worlds.
That wasn't a DEM.



Not too hard to connect two computers together. And when one of them is an intelligent life form, it won't be hard for it to figure out how to communicate.
Not necessarily-- you can't run an Android App on a Windows computer or Apple device, and visa verse--different operating systems.

It wouldn't be a stretch to assume there would be a big difference between the Borg's computer (alien and from the Delta Quadrant) and Data's brain.

How many times in Trek do we see a human or alien walk up to another alien computer that they've never encountered before and then just start punching a lot of keys and accessing info- that in itself probably produced a lot of mini DEM moments.

It would be like an English only speaking person going up to a computer with only Chinese, and quickly accessing a program or something .
Not really. But then, most windows machines aren't self aware. Data would be able to create some sort of communications program. And since we saw him do it, he must have that ability.

Given that Data would have a universal translator built into him, I don't see that it's much of a problem.

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
suddenly theres a power feedback loop that somehow, for some reason causes the entire ship to completely explode. BAM! No more Borg to worry about. lol
Because the Borg were putting all that energy to regenerating when there was nothing that needed to be regenerated. It's like turning on the tap full and not letting the water go anywhere. Sooner or later the pressure builds up and it blows.
True, but it's hard to believe that a being/ship as technically advanced as the Borg wouldn't notice the energy feeding back on itself, at a dangerous level, and stop regenerating. No sensors, no awareness?

Or have simple IF/THEN A.I rules, such as 'if energy level is stable, and regeneration is in progress, then stop regeneration process'.

And then Shelby offers to try and disable the process, as if she knew how?

It seemed too much like a techno babble based DEM, IMO.
Data probably overrode those sensors when he did it.
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Old November 9 2012, 05:31 PM   #148
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

DWF wrote: View Post
So while the Prophets were set up from the start of the series, they weren't in the Dominion war story arc until this ep.
And, of course, the Prophets couldn't have been included in the Dominion War story arc until the episode, because until that episode the wormhole was mined, and the Dominion controlled the station. How could the Prophets/Wormhole Aliens have been included in the war arc before "Sacrifice of Angels"?
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Old November 9 2012, 07:37 PM   #149
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^I thought it was just that the Dominion was afraid to risk sending any more ships through for fear that the same thing would happen to them.
That was always the impression I got too. Keep in mind 2800 ships is a lot and was very likely a significant percentage of their military and one that would take time to recover. Especially when you factor in all the soldiers and support personnel too. Honestly it I'd wonder why the Dominion didn't try and destroy the wormhole from the other side after that debacle.
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Old November 9 2012, 07:41 PM   #150
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Re: Sacrifice of the Angels Ending A Deus Ex Machina?

Why would the Dominion want to destroy the wormhole at all? For one thing, the Bashir-changeling worked to ensure the wormhole ended up "even more stable" when Sisko and crew tried to seal it in "In Purgatory's Shadow".
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