TNG: The Persistence of Memory by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

[matthunter]

To be fair to the writers, the "out" for Data's death was as heavily foreshadowed in Nemesis as Spock's resurrection was in The Wrath of Khan. I'd have been disappointed if they HADN'T done something with it. Likewise, the other character in this novel who escapes death (albeit dying again by the end) had enough established backstory to suggest this was a possible route for bringing him back.

If they bring Choudhury back from the events of this novel, I'll start calling BS as there's nothing there to hint it's possible. No memory backup, no katra, no friendly Q after a travelling companion, no temporal shenanigans...

And I have to say that Mack's resolution is far more organic, natural and meaningful than Data simply re-emerging within B-4's body, as Star Trek Online chose to do it... I've never quite bought that B-4's less advanced systems could "run" Data's software at all, even long enough for him to advise people on how to upgrade them (as STO would have it).

[Hartzilla2007]

matthunter wrote:

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To be fair to the writers, the "out" for Data's death was as heavily foreshadowed in Nemesis as Spock's resurrection was in The Wrath of Khan. I'd have been disappointed if they HADN'T done something with it.

Like I said in the Indistinguishable from Magic thread that this book inspired I don't care if it was foreshadowed I still don't like it.

And I after reading the first DC Comics TOS series set right after TWOK I feel the same way about Spock's ressurection.

And I have to say that Mack's resolution is far more organic, natural and meaningful than Data simply re-emerging within B-4's body, as Star Trek Online chose to do it... I've never quite bought that B-4's less advanced systems could "run" Data's software at all, even long enough for him to advise people on how to upgrade them (as STO would have it).

I really don't care how organic it felt a cop out is a cop out.

[Deranged Nasat]

matthunter wrote:

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If they bring Choudhury back from the events of this novel, I'll start calling BS as there's nothing there to hint it's possible. No memory backup, no katra, no friendly Q after a travelling companion, no temporal shenanigans...

Don't worry. She's not a TV character. There won't be legions of fans asking "where's Choudhury?" or saying it doesn't feel like a TNG book without her. There's no pre-established audience with an interest in her to be prompted into buying books on the promise of a new Choudhury story.

I wouldn't worry about book-only characters returning from the dead; even someone like Vaughn, who was as important and notable as a book-only character can be, I can pretty much guarantee we won't be seeing again. It's the TV characters who are considered integral parts of the original shows who we can't be assured will stay in the grave.

[Hartzilla2007]

Deranged Nasat wrote:

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Don't worry. She's not a TV character. There won't be legions of fans asking "where's Choudhury?" or saying it doesn't feel like a TNG book without her. There's no pre-established audience with an interest in her to be prompted into buying books on the promise of a new Choudhury story.

I wouldn't worry about book-only characters returning from the dead; even someone like Vaughn, who was as important and notable as a book-only character can be, I can pretty much guarantee we won't be seeing again. It's the TV characters who are considered integral parts of the original shows who we can't be assured will stay in the grave.

Which is another thing that annoys me about this, the whole only TV characters matter crap that will never allow the trek universe to expand as there are no more new TV characters, and there probably will never be any new TV characters in the Prime-verse.

[BillJ]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Which is another thing that annoys me about this, the whole only TV characters matter crap that will never allow the trek universe to expand as there are no more new TV characters, and there probably will never be any new TV characters in the Prime-verse.

This really makes no sense and will guarantee that Trek books either quit being published or get a full on reboot back to the places they left off in TV/Movies. Most people want to read about the characters they see on TV, those are the characters they like.

There is definitely danger in moving too far away from the source material.

[Christopher]

Hartzilla2007, have you actually read the book?

[Elias Vaughn]

Sho wrote:

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As such this level of Big Brothering shouldn't be OK either, but maybe that's the effect of a couple of wars in short order?

Postwar paranoia was actually overtly stated by Soong to be the probable cause for why the lab's security was so hard for him to break into. Given, he wasn't in a position to know for sure, but I have no problem accepting that after a war against Changelings Starfleet decided to be a little more security happy.

[BillJ]

Elias Vaughn wrote:

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Postwar paranoia was actually overtly stated by Soong to be the probable cause for why the lab's security was so hard for him to break into. Given, he wasn't in a position to know for sure, but I have no problem accepting that after a war against Changelings Starfleet decided to be a little more security happy.

I do have a problem with it. The Federation has become a society that openly spies on their citizens. I see that as a major step back.

[Hartzilla2007]

BillJ wrote:

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This really makes no sense and will guarantee that Trek books either quit being published or get a full on reboot back to the places they left off in TV/Movies. Most people want to read about the characters they see on TV, those are the characters they like.

There is definitely danger in moving too far away from the source material.

Um, wasn't part of the foundation of the modern trek litverse layed down by Star Trek: New Frontier and its mostly lit original cast. We also had the Stargazer series (with only Picard who was very different from the TNG version), COE, IKS Gorkon/Klingon Empire and Vanguard, In fact the DS9 relaunch cast is mostly made up of new characters. Seems like there might by a problem with your theory there.

[BillJ]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Um, wasn't part of the foundation of the modern trek litverse layed down by Star Trek: New Frontier and its mostly lit original cast. We also had the Stargazer series (with only Picard who was very different from the TNG version), COE, IKS Gorkon/Klingon Empire and Vanguard, In fact the DS9 relaunch cast is mostly made up of new characters. Seems like there might by a problem with your theory there.

And how many of those Trek Lit series are still going on? And DS9 seems to now be moving back towards using the canon characters. As is Voyager and TNG.

[Markonian]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Um, wasn't part of the foundation of the modern Trek litverse layed down by Star Trek: New Frontier and its mostly lit original cast. We also had the Stargazer series (with only Picard who was very different from the TNG version), COE, IKS Gorkon/Klingon Empire and Vanguard, in fact the DS9 relaunch cast is mostly made up of new characters. Seems like there might by a problem with your theory there.

Not necessarily: Those series you named started out as Trek Lit-only. People who pick them up know what they get. The novels based on TV shows, that's a different story: Long-time fans expect to see the characters they are familiar with (cf. success of TOS set during the everlasting five year mission).

Though, you are correct with the DS9-R. It had/has a nice mix of old an new characters.

Most of the TV characters can be active officers for the next few decades. Picard was already a dinosaur when TNG started and 24th/25th century medical science surely can make people live centuries. In addition, characters could still be part of their series when they leave the ship (e.g. future Ambassador Picard).

/my 2 cents

[Hartzilla2007]

BillJ wrote:

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And DS9 seems to now be moving back towards using the canon characters. As is Voyager and TNG.

A grand total of two, one of which had only left in the 3 year time skip and so was gone for maybe one or two books relatively, so really it was only one.

Garak, Dax, Sisko, Jake for the most part, Worf, and Rom, are still gone.

And

Kira is stuck with the prophets at least for the time being and wasn't around that much more any way, and Odo went with Sisko and will likely go back to the Gama Quadrant if and when the wormhole reopens. Hell they blew up DS9 for God's sake.

[BillJ]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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A grand total of two, one of which had only left in the 3 year time skip and so was gone for maybe one or two books relatively, so really it was only one.

Garak, Dax, Sisko, Jake for the most part, Worf, and Rom, are still gone.

And

Kira is stuck with the prophets at least for the time being and wasn't around that much more any way, and Odo went with Sisko and will likely go back to the Gama Quadrant if and when the wormhole reopens. Hell they blew up DS9 for God's sake.

To get replaced by a spanking new station called... you guessed it! Deep Space Nine! Which will serve the same exact purpose as the prior station. And have Quark and Bashir and Nog and O'Brien all in place. All they have to do is assign Robinson and the Aventine to the sector and you have most of the pieces right back in place.

And since the authors have admitted that the TOS books sell the best, there may be something to the notion that folks like reading about the characters they've seen on TV.

[Hartzilla2007]

BillJ wrote:

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To get replaced by a spanking new station called... you guessed it! Deep Space Nine! Which will serve the same exact purpose as the prior station. And have Quark and Bashir and Nog and O'Brien all in place. All they have to do is assign Robinson and the Aventine to the sector and you have most of the pieces right back in place.

Yeah an entirely NEW DS9 that looks nothing like the old one since it isn't a repurposed old Cardassian mining station, and just why would the reassign the Robinson and the Aventine (one of the new slipstream ships) to the Bajoran sector of all places?

[BillJ]

Hartzilla2007 wrote:

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Yeah an entirely NEW DS9 that looks nothing like the old one since it isn't a repurposed old Cardassian mining station, and just why would the reassign the Robinson and the Aventine (one of the new slipstream ships) to the Bajoran sector of all places?

Why not? The Enterprise was there.