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Old October 24 2012, 04:28 PM   #31
Pavonis
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Nowadays? Or in the 24th century?
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Old October 24 2012, 07:52 PM   #32
sonak
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Nowadays? Or in the 24th century?


both, I would assume.
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Old October 24 2012, 11:55 PM   #33
MacLeod
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Well doing nothing isn't usually a crime, sure it might not be moral. However if you set up the circumstances as Alixus did in "PAradise" and then do nothing it's a crime.
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Old October 25 2012, 12:14 AM   #34
Pavonis
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

But she (and the rest of the colony) didn't do nothing; they used local remedies - herbs and poultices and the like.

Even if Alixus had relented and turned off the duonetic field, it's not as though there's a 911 service out there. They could issue a distress signal, but there would be no telling when it would be answered. So calling any deaths in the colony "murder" is a stretch. Colonization is a risky endeavor. Alixus made it a bit riskier, is all.
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Old October 25 2012, 12:30 AM   #35
MacLeod
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

No it's not. No doubt the colony was transporting things to set up an Infirmary. It is also likely it being a newly established colony it would have been receiving aid from the Federation in starting up. The original colony site might have been realtively close to a starbase or trade routes. As for the lack of an emergency service, there is one is called Starfleet.

No one is saying establishing a colony isn't risky, As Alixus made it risker than it would have been any deaths resulting from increasing that risk are murder. She sabotaged the colony ship so it went of course, she set up the duonetic field that inhibted the technology. Those are conscience decions she made, which result in deaths. As a conscience decions was made it's murder.

From wikipedia.

In English law the mens rea requirement of murder is an intention to commit an act (or omission) and that there is a "high degree of probability" that such act or omission will result in the death or serious injury of another person

She commited the act of sabotage of the colony ship, setting up the dunonetic field which inhibited technology both of which she knew carried a high degree of probablilty that such acts would lead to the deaths of some of the colonists. As such those deaths are murder.
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Old October 25 2012, 12:41 AM   #36
sonak
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Well doing nothing isn't usually a crime, sure it might not be moral. However if you set up the circumstances as Alixus did in "PAradise" and then do nothing it's a crime.

I think it depends on the situation. I think that if someone stands by and lets someone else die when they have the ability to help them, and helping them doesn't involve any risk, it is some kind of crime. It's not murder of course, but isn't there like a "depraved indifference" law or something?

like an adult expert swimmer who watched a little kid drown in four or five feet of water, or something like that.

Any legal experts here? Am I way off base?


At any rate, as you write, Alixus deliberately imprisoned them there anyway, so she is responsible for foreseeable deaths from the situation she created.
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Old October 25 2012, 07:12 AM   #37
CommanderRaytas
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Well doing nothing isn't usually a crime, sure it might not be moral.
It is a crime where I live. When someone is in need of help and you could easily, but don't, that is a crime, and it's punished pretty severely. I would think that this is valid in the Federation, as well, as refusing to help someone who needs your help is despicable.
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Old October 25 2012, 09:15 AM   #38
Timo
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

In English law the mens rea requirement of murder is an intention to commit an act (or omission) and that there is a "high degree of probability" that such act or omission will result in the death or serious injury of another person
This is a nonsensical law that doesn't work in a vacuum. One has to carefully define the limitations on what sort of death or serious injury will be accepted as criminal, out of the infinitely large pool of ways to die or get injured as the consequence of an arbitrary choice X.

If you give birth to a child, you are according to this law clearly guilty of murdering her, as you have deliberately and willingly created the circumstances where she will eventually and inevitably die. Unless you are an utter nutcase who really believes that death does not exist, that is.

Speaking of nutcases, there is no law against observing a nonsensical and deadly diet or taking fake medication for an ailment. People can die in silly ways if they want to. And the point here is, the followers of Alixus wanted to die in silly ways.

She commited the act of sabotage of the colony ship, setting up the dunonetic field which inhibited technology both of which she knew carried a high degree of probablilty that such acts would lead to the deaths of some of the colonists. As such those deaths are murder.
None of them are - they are the inevitable consequence of living.

We have never ever heard of a Federation law that would require a person to take medication when ill. Or to observe a healthy diet. Or to spend all his life indoors clad in safety padding. The Federation is a-okay with people committing suicide through colonization, and apparently even encourages the practice somewhat.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old October 25 2012, 10:20 AM   #39
lurok
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Discussion here has raised some interesting thoughts about Federation and medical ethics. Particularly regarding intervention - or non, as case may be. Wasn't that the case with Sisko when he was having those visions, and they had to get Jake-o to consent over his wishes? And Janeway sanctioning Q's suicide? (Yeah, I know he's not a Fed citizen, but...) Come to think of it, quite a few times Captains sanctioned 'death wish' missions
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Old October 25 2012, 10:51 AM   #40
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
it's not as though there's a 911 service out there. They could issue a distress signal, but there would be no telling when it would be answered
It was stipulated in Sisko's log entry that the planet was fairly close to the wormhole, and therefor DS9, any distress call would have been quickly received.

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Old October 25 2012, 11:14 AM   #41
MacLeod
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Timo wrote: View Post
In English law the mens rea requirement of murder is an intention to commit an act (or omission) and that there is a "high degree of probability" that such act or omission will result in the death or serious injury of another person
This is a nonsensical law that doesn't work in a vacuum. One has to carefully define the limitations on what sort of death or serious injury will be accepted as criminal, out of the infinitely large pool of ways to die or get injured as the consequence of an arbitrary choice X.

If you give birth to a child, you are according to this law clearly guilty of murdering her, as you have deliberately and willingly created the circumstances where she will eventually and inevitably die. Unless you are an utter nutcase who really believes that death does not exist, that is.

Speaking of nutcases, there is no law against observing a nonsensical and deadly diet or taking fake medication for an ailment. People can die in silly ways if they want to. And the point here is, the followers of Alixus wanted to die in silly ways.

She commited the act of sabotage of the colony ship, setting up the dunonetic field which inhibited technology both of which she knew carried a high degree of probablilty that such acts would lead to the deaths of some of the colonists. As such those deaths are murder.
None of them are - they are the inevitable consequence of living.

We have never ever heard of a Federation law that would require a person to take medication when ill. Or to observe a healthy diet. Or to spend all his life indoors clad in safety padding. The Federation is a-okay with people committing suicide through colonization, and apparently even encourages the practice somewhat.

Timo Saloniemi
You are totally missing the point. It's about increasing that chance before it would normally occur.

If you put up a building and decide to cut corners and use substandard materials which aren't up to code. You have increased the risk of death or serious injury occuring should an event like a fire occur.


The colonist DIDN'T choose to seetle on a planmet without access to 24th Century technology. That decision was forced upon them. As there was a deliberate act on the part of Alixus to do so, that's what changes it. The vast majority of the colonist WEREN'T followers of Alixus. Just because she was the de facto colony leader doesn't mean they were followers.

If she had collected togther a group of people who wanted to live without technology and accepted those risks it would be a diiferent story. She forced her own viewpoint onto others, through acts of sabotage, helped create the duonetic field. She could easily have deactivated it any time, and perahps saved some lives because without it the medical gear they took would work. They could have sent out a distress call which starfleet could respond to.

It was no accident that the colony ship crash landed there, Alixus took conscience and dilberate decions to ensure that it did. It is because of those actions that it becomes murder rather manslaughter.
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Old October 25 2012, 11:22 AM   #42
Timo
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Both murder and manslaughter are absurd charges for something Alixus was in no way involved in.

Sure, she might be charged with neglect. But neglect is an absurd charge as well, unless you define your standards. You personally are currently guilty of mass murder for failing to stop the fighting in Syria, for example, and should therefore face the music (punch in the face or brainwashing, UFP style, or a poison injection or life spent in a closet, current Earth style) - unless the law is based on reasonable standards.

Accusing Alixus of not having a surgery room available is absurd chiefly because surgery rooms are not generally available. Thus, people die, even though this could be prevented by the unreasonable step of telling them never to go far from a surgery room.

The Federation is known to have obligated people to die premature deaths. It is not known to obligate people to live "full" lives - quite to the contrary, suicide is a respected choice, and coordinated mass suicide an honorable way out of a bad jam. Holding Alixus to higher than average standards is a ridiculously hollow way to accuse her of murder.

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Old October 25 2012, 12:06 PM   #43
MacLeod
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

So if you sabotage a plane and it crashes and it causes deaths you are not guilty of murder?
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Old October 25 2012, 01:26 PM   #44
CommanderRaytas
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Put it simply: people would not have died in droves, had that crazy bitch not lied to them about their being stuck on that godawful rock in the middle of nowhere. That's akin to your watching someone have an allergic reaction and die after claiming not to have either the medicine they need, or a mobile, when in fact you do...which then directly results in their death. That is a crime around here and punishable by jailtime.
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Old October 25 2012, 01:46 PM   #45
R. Star
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Your example about Syria is stretching at best. Can you honestly defend that as a rational rebuttal? I suspect unless someone here is an official in one of the involved powers in that conflict, it's beyond our control. About all I can do about it is vote for who I think will deal with it better in a couple weeks.

Alixius was in control. She had the ability to turn off that field and call for help. She never did. In fact she deliberately sabotaged Sisko's attempts to call for help in the case of the single person we see die.

If we were all stranded on a desert island and I had a cell phone and hid it, and you died of a common cold that could have been treated easily, should I not be held responsible? What Alixius did was even worse being she deliberately stranded her people there. Her son tried to destroy the runabout so he had the ability to get aboard it. It didn't occur to him to grab a medkit while he was there? Sisko said a hypospray would have cured that woman. That's rather deliberate too.

So yes, she can be held responsible for everyone there who died of a curable malady over there. She deliberately took actions to strand them there, refused to take action within her ability to help the people who got sick and deliberately sabotaged other people's attempts to help. So yeah, she's responsible and should be held criminally liable.
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