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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 22 2012, 09:28 PM   #16
MacLeod
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Location: Great Britain
Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Well I find it hard to believe that Allixus couldn't find enough people to help found the colony she wanteded with little or no technology, the Federation population must be in the hundreds of billions if not close to a trillion. That she had to resort to kidnapping, murder etc.. Each preventable death she caused due to her actions could be conisdered murder. She knew that their might be deaths.
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Old October 22 2012, 09:50 PM   #17
Ian Keldon
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

I like that the colony was left in peace to grow as IT wanted to grow. Star Trek sometimes has some unwarranted techno-progress fetishism in it. There's plenty of room for high-tech "advanced" society of the week, but no room for those who just want a quiet, pastoral life in tune with nature, no place for thoughts such as:

" the one small garden is all my need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm: my own hands to use, not the hands of others to command." - Samwise Gamgee

Last edited by Ian Keldon; October 23 2012 at 07:34 AM.
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Old October 23 2012, 07:31 AM   #18
CommanderRaytas
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Timo wrote: View Post
Besides, why the hell weren't those people dragged off in handcuffs after holding a bunch of Starfleet officers against their will and torturing one of 'em?
They did nothing illegal in that respect, according to local laws. Sisko and O'Brien did.

If Starfleet were in the habit of "dragging away" people who don't immediately bow to their will, they'd have their hands full. But not even the hippie-beating herbert Kirk really stooped to that. He was held at gunpoint or worse often enough, but his preferred solution was to punch the local leader in the face and call it even.

Apparently, Sisko just doesn't punch women in the face.

Timo Saloniemi
I'm all for equality in that regard, because let's face it, the bitch deserved it.

Honestly, abducting and torturing people should be considered a crime no matter where you are, but given as they weren't part of the Federation anymore, you're right of course. But I don't have to like it.
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Old October 23 2012, 02:07 PM   #19
Pavonis
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

They weren't abducted to the colony. They all chose to join Alixus in her colonization effort. They were just mislead as to the real purpose of the colony.

Furthermore, were they really tortured? They all chose to set up the punishment box. If it was torture, they were complicit in its execution. There's no reason to think, though, that all the colonists spent time in the box. For all we know, only one person ever spent time in that box, and it just happened to be when Sisko and O'Brien showed up.
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Old October 23 2012, 02:40 PM   #20
Timo
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Whether a short time spent in the box is worse torture than years spent in jail is also debatable. Current handling of criminals is based on freedom-deprivation torture whose principal purpose is to cause suffering to deter further violations and possibly even to preempt them, with the secondary effect of removing the miscreant from mischief for a (typically insignificant) period of time. Naturally, our UFP heroes would look at both systems with disgust, but their disgust with conventional freedom-deprivation torture has never been particularly marked.

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Old October 23 2012, 05:19 PM   #21
lurok
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

CommanderRaytas wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
... Apparently, Sisko just doesn't punch women in the face.
Timo Saloniemi
I'm all for equality in that regard, because let's face it, the bitch deserved it.
I don't condone this...but quote of the day
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Old October 23 2012, 06:04 PM   #22
R. Star
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Timo wrote: View Post
Besides, why the hell weren't those people dragged off in handcuffs after holding a bunch of Starfleet officers against their will and torturing one of 'em?
They did nothing illegal in that respect, according to local laws. Sisko and O'Brien did.

If Starfleet were in the habit of "dragging away" people who don't immediately bow to their will, they'd have their hands full. But not even the hippie-beating herbert Kirk really stooped to that. He was held at gunpoint or worse often enough, but his preferred solution was to punch the local leader in the face and call it even.

Apparently, Sisko just doesn't punch women in the face.

Timo Saloniemi
Local laws don't equate to anything approaching morality. In Germany in the 40's it was perfectly legal to drag away Jews, gays and other minorities to concentration camps. If something's morally wrong a passed law isn't going to change that. Besides, I saw no evidence there were any restrictions on Alexis and her rule. It's my way, my kid is the only one with a weapon, you don't like it, get in the box.

Besides, all of those people were Federation citizens. If I was marooned on an island for ten years that doesn't mean I stop being a citizen of my country. Given they had access to technology the entire time there's a very credible argument Alexis could be brought up on manslaughter charges for every death there. Certainly the ending implied to me that Sisko was going to be pushing that option.

I'm kinda with Raytas... I'm a gentleman.. but that bitch kinda deserved it. Kinda makes you wish Dax or Kira was there so one of them could've decked her without any ramifications there.
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Old October 23 2012, 06:24 PM   #23
MacLeod
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

More like murder charges, she acted with premediation to strand the colonists on that planet. Any deaths which occur beause of that premdiated action are murder.
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Old October 24 2012, 12:15 AM   #24
Pavonis
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

The colonists were always going to end up "stranded". The plan was to settle on the planet permanently, wasn't it? And murder charges? Even if Alixus hadn't set up the duonetic field to suppress all Treknology, the risks involved in establishing a colony aren't trivial. Surely the Federation expects that colonists will die in the effort to establish settlements. How could the Federation charge Alixus with murder when they send colonists out into the untamed frontier where they can be killed by any number of things, up to and including giant crystals that vaporize entire planetary surfaces?
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Old October 24 2012, 02:52 AM   #25
R. Star
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
The colonists were always going to end up "stranded". The plan was to settle on the planet permanently, wasn't it? And murder charges? Even if Alixus hadn't set up the duonetic field to suppress all Treknology, the risks involved in establishing a colony aren't trivial. Surely the Federation expects that colonists will die in the effort to establish settlements. How could the Federation charge Alixus with murder when they send colonists out into the untamed frontier where they can be killed by any number of things, up to and including giant crystals that vaporize entire planetary surfaces?
Pretty much why I said manslaughter and not murder. She may not have been the cause of what killed them, but she very deliberately denied the other colonists the means to save them.
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Old October 24 2012, 07:30 AM   #26
CommanderRaytas
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Cthulurok wrote: View Post
CommanderRaytas wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
... Apparently, Sisko just doesn't punch women in the face.
Timo Saloniemi
I'm all for equality in that regard, because let's face it, the bitch deserved it.
I don't condone this...but quote of the day
Thank you.

As for the abduction bit, I was actually referring to Sisko & Pals, not the colonists. They were held against their will, which amounts to the same thing....and as for the colonists, they were kept there under false pretenses, lest we forget. The woman was a psychopath.
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Old October 24 2012, 07:46 AM   #27
Timo
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Local laws don't equate to anything approaching morality.
But they are the only way to express morality in anything but the most irrelevantly subjective manner. Morality is about commonly approved choices, and laws are the expression of common approval.

For the people of the paradise planet, right and wrong were clearly defined and set in law. If Sisko had a different idea about right and wrong, the legal system existed to dissuade him from having that idea.

Besides, I saw no evidence there were any restrictions on Alexis and her rule.
Why should there be evidence of such a thing? It just goes to show that Alixus held the popular vote, and all her actions were considered to be moral.

Given they had access to technology the entire time there's a very credible argument Alexis could be brought up on manslaughter charges for every death there. Certainly the ending implied to me that Sisko was going to be pushing that option.
Even though it does appear that Starfleet is the sole law enforcement organization in the Federation (apart from the Secret Police of ST3), I doubt Sisko would be in a position to dictate charges that abstract. Alixus would go down on much more concrete terms anyway.

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Old October 24 2012, 10:56 AM   #28
MacLeod
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
The colonists were always going to end up "stranded". The plan was to settle on the planet permanently, wasn't it? And murder charges? Even if Alixus hadn't set up the duonetic field to suppress all Treknology, the risks involved in establishing a colony aren't trivial. Surely the Federation expects that colonists will die in the effort to establish settlements. How could the Federation charge Alixus with murder when they send colonists out into the untamed frontier where they can be killed by any number of things, up to and including giant crystals that vaporize entire planetary surfaces?
Erm no the original plan was for them to settle on a different planet. With access to 24th century technology, subspace radio to call for help f needed etc..

Alixus hijacked the original plan for her own purposes, set up the duonetic field which inhivated the technology. She could have deactivated it to call for medical help. She ensured that the ship crashed landed on that planet. So there was premeditation invovled. Which ups it from manslaughter to murder. Manslaughter usually implies a lack of premediation, taking a conscious decision to do something which results in deaths could be argued to be murder.
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Old October 24 2012, 12:46 PM   #29
Timo
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

So conceiving a child is murder? That inevitably leads to the death of the child, after all!

It's not. Not unless the person doing the conceiving also directly murders the child. If and when the child dies because of circumstances (say, stumbles on a poison plant, or outlives the warranty on the heart), the person doing the conceiving is innocent of murder, or indeed of any wrongdoing.

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Old October 24 2012, 04:05 PM   #30
sonak
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Re: How would you have improved 'Paradise'?

Timo wrote: View Post
So conceiving a child is murder? That inevitably leads to the death of the child, after all!

It's not. Not unless the person doing the conceiving also directly murders the child. If and when the child dies because of circumstances (say, stumbles on a poison plant, or outlives the warranty on the heart), the person doing the conceiving is innocent of murder, or indeed of any wrongdoing.

Timo Saloniemi

what does this have to do with the premise of the show?

Alixus could have disabled the device blocking communications at any time someone became sick, and could have called for help.


if someone's child was dying, and they pretended that their cellphone was broken and that they couldn't dial 911, I think that would be a crime.
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