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Old October 15 2012, 04:12 PM   #151
Set Harth
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

Kegg wrote:
although if memory serves all the stormtroopers in the original trilogy have had their dialogue redubbed by Temeura Morrison
That did not happen. Boba's dialogue was redubbed.

Kegg wrote:
but there are bigger moral issues you can charge the Jedi with then you can charge the Rebel Alliance with
I don't know if it's that cut-and-dried. Do the presumed Jedi misdeeds outweigh the thing about Death Star construction workers?
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Old October 15 2012, 04:18 PM   #152
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

Very well. Even so, if Lucas says that all stormtroopers ever are clones of Jango Fett, then that's what it is. If such a quote can be found.

Ubik wrote: View Post
So -if people admire or enjoy fictional characters who have evil aspects, this in no way reveals anything about how they would feel if those fictional characters had real-life counterparts. As soon as they become real, people's moral views of them change -
That's absolutely true, but in fairness it's a distinction that has been brought up in the thread. The issue is Ian Keldon takes an undisputed point - the Empire was an evil organization guilty of mass murder and genocide in the fictional universe of Star Wars - and reaches the conclusion that not only should nobody dress up as members of this evil organization, doing so implicitly endorses them as the good guys of that narrative.

I mean honestly, do you think anyone who dresses up as a stormtrooper was rooting for Luke to miss his shot and for the Death Star to blow up Yavin when they first saw that movie?

People can definitely talk about the issues with Star Wars' morality in general (and the redemption of Vader is part of this - indeed him dying implicitly for his sins is a conveinent way to sidestep any long term ramifications of his redemption) but the way Keldon is framing it is a little... much.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Kegg wrote:
but there are bigger moral issues you can charge the Jedi with then you can charge the Rebel Alliance with
I don't know if it's that cut-and-dried. Do the presumed Jedi misdeeds outweigh the thing about Death Star construction workers?
They're a lot murkier.

If you accept the premise that there can be a just war, and that the cause the Rebels support is just, then you also accept there are circumstances where civilian casualties are acceptable, like with the destruction of a massive planet-exploding military installation.

On the other hand, accepting the premise that there is a just war to be fought does not require you to accept that you must fight it with an army of intelligent beings that has been expressly bred for this purpose and has literally no choice in the matter. You can argue that using the clones is the right call to make, sure, but it is something that requires a little further argument beyond 'can there be a just war.'

So yeah, one can fairly make arguments about the Rebel Alliance and the Jedis, but the case against the Jedi is a little stronger than it is against the Rebel Alliance.
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Last edited by Kegg; October 15 2012 at 04:30 PM.
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Old October 15 2012, 04:30 PM   #153
Set Harth
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

Kegg wrote:
if Lucas says that all stormtroopers ever are clones of Jango Fett, then that's what it is.
I don't think he went so far as to specifically say they were all Jango clones, but it does look like he said stormtroopers were clones "early on" and he does seem to say they're clones in the present tense during sort of a quasi-comical association he makes at one point. I thought there was a comment floating around somewhere official that said they were a mix of clones and recruits, but I can't find it.
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Old October 15 2012, 05:07 PM   #154
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

Kegg wrote: View Post
Very well. Even so, if Lucas says that all stormtroopers ever are clones of Jango Fett, then that's what it is. If such a quote can be found.

Ubik wrote: View Post
So -if people admire or enjoy fictional characters who have evil aspects, this in no way reveals anything about how they would feel if those fictional characters had real-life counterparts. As soon as they become real, people's moral views of them change -
That's absolutely true, but in fairness it's a distinction that has been brought up in the thread. The issue is Ian Keldon takes an undisputed point - the Empire was an evil organization guilty of mass murder and genocide in the fictional universe of Star Wars - and reaches the conclusion that not only should nobody dress up as members of this evil organization, doing so implicitly endorses them as the good guys of that narrative..
Exactly. Beyond the whole fiction/reality thing, there seems to be some confusion here between being a "fan" of something and seeing them as the good guys. The world is full of Godzilla fans who don't necessarily approve of stomping on entire cities.

But wait. Godzilla was originally a big, scaly metaphor for the A-bomb, so clearly, by the OP's reasoning, people who collect Godzilla toys are endorsing nuclear devastation . . .
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Old October 15 2012, 06:02 PM   #155
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

^^^ Plus, how many Trek fans dress up as Klingons. Most Klingons are cold blooded murderers as depicted in Trek - in fact Worf is the exception to the rule.
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Old October 15 2012, 06:15 PM   #156
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

^
I believe he's conflating the attitudes of the Army in the 1920s and early 1930s - when the Nazis were just a far-right political party in the German political landscape - to the attitude of the army in the 1940s.
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Old October 15 2012, 06:38 PM   #157
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

Ian Keldon wrote: View Post
I was watching a documentary about the warcrimes and atrocities of the regular (that is, non SS) divisions of the Wehrmacht in World War II and it just hit me. These are the same type of people that would have made up the Imperial Army in the Star Wars universe. Fanatical, genocidal fascists who enslaved entire worlds, destroyed entire races at the command of their evil Sith Emperor.

The Nazi version of Stormtroopers (the SS) were the worst of the whole evil organization. They were responsible for, among other atrocities, the operation of the death camps.

So why would any person with a functioning soul want to be a fan of the Star Wars universe equivalent? The organized SW Imperial fandom, the 501st, explicitly takes it's name from the most infamous of all stormtrooper divisions, being the one that prosecuted the genocide against the Jedi.

It makes me sick in the heart now to see stormtrooper fans parading around in their SW Nazi uniforms and acting like there's nothing wrong with it.

In real life, if someone wanted to start a fanclub for the
SS-Totenkopfverbände (the "Death's Head" Division, responsible for carrying out the Final Solution), we'd call them at best ignorant.

Next time you see one of these fools at a con, ask them if they really understand the statement they are making by parading around as Space Nazis.

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Old October 15 2012, 06:46 PM   #158
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

By comparing SS Totenkopfverbände to lousy Stormtroopers, Ian Keldon insults each and everyone who fought against them.
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Old October 15 2012, 07:11 PM   #159
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

I wish we could insert some sophisticated CGI into Ian's argument so it'd make a whole lot more sense, but alas even that is beyond the skills of the greatest effects and graphics artists in the business. I've gotta go with Jarod on this...comparing fictional space soldiers with Adolf Hitler's SS is incredibly insulting to the collective memory of surviving veterans of the European campaigns as well as one of the most absurd arguments I think I've ever read in more than a decade on the TrekBBS.

And if you've seen some of the board arguments I have that's saying a lot.
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Old October 15 2012, 09:33 PM   #160
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

starwars.com databank wrote:
"Following the rise of the Empire, the military cloning program expanded to include new clone hosts. By the time the Empire consolidated its power by dissolving the Senate, the ranks of the Imperial stormtroopers would include cloned infantry from multiple sources as well as birth-born conscripts and recruits from various worlds."
:
TFU II databank wrote:
Operational Log (excerpt): Since the Empire has redirected the clone trooper program to other pursuits and stepped up recruiting inferior humans from the Outer Rim, the operational effectiveness of this army has declined significantly. The stormtroopers in my own battalion are expendable buffoons. They have neither common sense nor sense of their own surroundings. Just today I witnessed a new recruit hit his head on a blast door during maneuvers. Blasted idiots! What a disgrace to the heritage and legacy of a once truly incredible fighting force. As one of the last clones in service today, few others can share in my disdain for these men. I'd sacrifice an entire platoon of new stormtrooper recruits for just one real clone trooper. If the clone template were still alive, I think he'd kill them all himself.
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Old October 15 2012, 10:14 PM   #161
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
The Spaarti cloning technology was never used for the production of clone troopers during Palpatine's rule. [...]
Towards the end of the Clone Wars, Palpatine set up secret cloning facilities on Centax-2, a Coruscant moon. Arkanian Microtechnologies, the corporation that ran these facilities, used Spaarti cloning technology. The first batches of Centax troopers were being incorporated into the GAR shortly before Order 66 and the declaration of the Empire.

It was discovery of increasing numbers of these inferior clones that led a small group of Fett clones to put into action a plan to desert.
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Old October 15 2012, 10:17 PM   #162
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

Let me say that I'm glad we've turned this train wreck into an actual, nerdy discussion of SW lore. Kudos to everybody. It looks as if we can actually rescue this thing after all.
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Old October 15 2012, 10:45 PM   #163
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

The OP would probably be quite disgusted to learn that my current favorite SW comic is Agent of the Empire - a spy series following an Imperial Intelligence agent who commits espionage, assassinations, etc. for the security of the Empire.

The first issue of the second story arc comes out this Wednesday.
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Old October 15 2012, 11:06 PM   #164
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

Ghouleddie74 wrote: View Post
Let me say that I'm glad we've turned this train wreck into an actual, nerdy discussion of SW lore. Kudos to everybody. It looks as if we can actually rescue this thing after all.
Oh, there's still a chance to screw it all up. We're not talking minutiae of the Star Wars universe, soon it's going to turn into a Prequel versus Original thread or What The Hell does that Prophecy MEAN?

Give it time. We can screw this one up yet.
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Old October 15 2012, 11:10 PM   #165
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Re: How can any decent person be a SW stormtrooper fan?

Yeah, I was in Optimist Mode when I posted that. This is the TrekBBS. There's still time to call Jar Jar a racist stereotype and send the entire thread up in a mushroom cloud.
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