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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old October 5 2012, 01:39 PM   #1
Mrs Q
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TNG uniform question.

Blue is for medical/science, gold is for opperations/security so what's red for?
I always thought it was for Admirals Captains and First Officers, but watching the repeats on PickTV, the first time I've seen TNG in years, I've noticed lot's of other people wearing the red uniform and, thinking about it, when Wesley got his uniform it was red and so was Ro Laren's and they were Ensigns.
What's the red uniform for.
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Old October 5 2012, 01:42 PM   #2
grabthars hammer
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Re: TNG uniform question.

TNG-era red is for command-ladder personnel
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Old October 5 2012, 01:59 PM   #3
Mrs Q
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Re: TNG uniform question.

grabthars hammer wrote: View Post
TNG-era red is for command-ladder personnel

Thank you.
I can stop wracking my brains now!
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Old October 5 2012, 02:38 PM   #4
Therin of Andor
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Re: TNG uniform question.

Mrs Q wrote: View Post
I can stop wracking my brains now!
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfleet_uniform
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Old October 5 2012, 03:35 PM   #5
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: TNG uniform question.

I take red to include personnel in: Command, Flight Control, Shuttlebay, Administration, and Services (stewards and the like, especially on larger ships).
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Old October 5 2012, 04:11 PM   #6
J.T.B.
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Re: TNG uniform question.

The division is called "command" but that is kind of misleading. It seems to be centered on helm and weapons functions, and has people who are a long way from actually taking command (Wesley Crusher). This was addressed in the TOS movies, where pretty much only the captain, first officer and admirals wore white.

One thing seems pretty sure, the lines between the TOS and TNG division colors are fairly loose. They don't indicate who can take command; Scotty and Data were not "command division" but were fully qualified to take the center seat. Likewise they don't seem to indicate a "career track": Sulu started out in sciences but rose to captain a ship, Troi was science/medical but qualified as officer of the watch.

Justin
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Old October 5 2012, 06:52 PM   #7
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Re: TNG uniform question.

I really wish that Picard had worn the new captain's uniform variant, a gray undershirt with an open red jacket, that first appeared in Darmok much more. It looked really nice.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...27s_jacket.jpg
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Old October 5 2012, 08:03 PM   #8
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: TNG uniform question.

He should've worn a skant

"This is all the uniform I need."
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Old October 5 2012, 09:36 PM   #9
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Re: TNG uniform question.

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Old October 6 2012, 11:18 AM   #10
Mrs Q
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Re: TNG uniform question.

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
The division is called "command" but that is kind of misleading. It seems to be centered on helm and weapons functions, and has people who are a long way from actually taking command (Wesley Crusher). This was addressed in the TOS movies, where pretty much only the captain, first officer and admirals wore white.

One thing seems pretty sure, the lines between the TOS and TNG division colors are fairly loose. They don't indicate who can take command; Scotty and Data were not "command division" but were fully qualified to take the center seat. Likewise they don't seem to indicate a "career track": Sulu started out in sciences but rose to captain a ship, Troi was science/medical but qualified as officer of the watch.

Justin
Data is a Lieutenant Commander, so if the red uniform is for command personell he should have really worne a red one then instead of gold?
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Old October 6 2012, 11:22 AM   #11
Mrs Q
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Re: TNG uniform question.

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
He should've worn a skant

"This is all the uniform I need."
What were those skants about?
I noticed them a lot in the first series then, thankfully, they seemed to get rid of them.
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Old October 6 2012, 11:24 AM   #12
Therin of Andor
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Re: TNG uniform question.

Mrs Q wrote: View Post
Data is a Lieutenant Commander, so if the red uniform is for command personell he should have really worne a red one then instead of gold?
Command Division, for people on the command track. ie. Not scientists and not engineers/security. Lieutenant Commander is a rank. There are lieutenant commanders in command division (wine), medical/science division (teal) and ship's operations division (gold).
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Old October 9 2012, 12:52 AM   #13
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Re: TNG uniform question.

Mrs Q wrote: View Post
What were those skants about?
I noticed them a lot in the first series then, thankfully, they seemed to get rid of them.
It was a lot of politically correct nonsense that said all clothing will be unisex.
Early TNG had a lot of dumb ideas, like no one having a specific position, and a "counselor" on the bridge. They had no idea what she was supposed to do.
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Old October 10 2012, 06:48 AM   #14
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Re: TNG uniform question.

And then some of those stupid ideas stuck. Just like in TOS, where they had this Communications Officer character of no particular function, or the Engineer who left Engineering to occasionally command the ship.

We know the uniform colors are generally associated with "divisions", "specialties" or "lines of work", but this is not completely consistent; in TOS, it actually seemed closer to being completely random in that respect. Moreover, nobody in the Trek universe actually outright comes and says that the colors denote divisions. It just so happens that a character in a certain line of work wears a certain color, and may mention wearing that color because of being what he is. But "is engineer -> wears mustard" is not the logical equivalent of "wearing mustard -> being engineer", or even of "being engineer -> wearing mustard"...

It might be that the colors are fundamentally unrelated to lines of work. Rather, to put it in today's military terms, one color (gold in TOS, red in TNG, blue in the 2230s of the latest movie) is associated with line officers who have an unlimited mandate to command people of lower rank, and also to boss over staff officers of basically any rank. And another color (blue in TOS and TNG) is for staff officers who are specialists with "civilian" training (doctors, astronomers, geologists, entomologists) and only carry high rank to denote their academic education and associated pay rate. This tells the casual TNG Starfleeter that a Commander wearing red is to be obeyed, but a Commander wearing blue is to be argued with - and OTOH that somebody in red is likely to be in a "soldier" line of work and can tell about the tactical aims of the mission, while somebody in blue is likely to have an answer to his "civilian" question about dibronium ore or Catullan wedding habits or the nagging pain on the left side, just below the ribs.

The in-between color might then apply to so-called restricted line officers, with skills that make them more useful in their specific tasks and unlikely to be mere markers and keystones in the hierarchy structure (unit commanders and decisionmakers of various sorts).

Naturally, certain types of "profession" would get to predominantly wear staff colors, then - doctors, scientists, support personnel. Other "professions" would get line colors - the leaders of the various hierarchy levels, the people studying up for leadership positions in relevant lines of work such as helm or gunnery. And there'd be a great pool of personnel in restricted line colors, with potential to "ascend" to line colors but with current duties in "middle management" of various specialties - calling for more authority in group interaction than staff has. A lone astronomer doesn't really need the authority of his LtCmdr rank in his line of work, and can wear staff colors to indicate this, but an engineer would need to hold higher rank than her team of engineers in order to efficiently manage them, and would wear restricted line colors to highlight her hierarchical status.

Three colors is a perfect fit for the system of line vs. restricted line vs. staff. On the other hand, it's a piss-poor fit for a system of divisions, because Starfleet clearly has far more than three divisions, and uniform color never tells apart a useless cosmologist from a vitally important surgeon.

Granted, Star Trek is a TV show where simplification is important to prevent the audience from getting hopelessly confused by all the alien and futuristic things... But it never seemed the makers of the show thought in terms of division colors as such. In TOS and its pilots, uniform colors existed from the very start - but separate "line of work" identifiers did, too, in the form of symbols worn in the middle of the arrowhead insignia on the uniform chest. At various times in the history of Star Trek the phenomenon, this duality may have been forgotten, and indeed in the first movie there was a conscious effort to use color for divisions; this was done by introducing lots and lots of new colors, now only worn on the epaulets or chest badges, while uniform color itself became pseudo-random (that is, with some method to the madness, but none the audience could figure out). The following TOS movies continued the use of division colors on epaulets and shirt collars. But then TNG went back to simple three uniform colors, this time without separate division markers anywhere. And there we have it: a confusing and almost information-free "system" of colors that the modern writers probably do not understand themselves. But the concept of the colors denoting line vs. staff still fits the evidence, and allows us to think that our characters at least have some sort of order and sense in their lives, even if this isn't exactly due to the efforts of the writers or the costumers.

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Old October 10 2012, 04:26 PM   #15
timmy84
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Re: TNG uniform question.

I had always assumed it was gold was security or engineering, blue was the sciences and red was operations. It just always made sense to me.

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