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Old October 19 2012, 01:27 PM   #46
blssdwlf
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Timo wrote: View Post
Essentially, we would thus be seeing the thing you find under the title "Space Pod" about halfway down this page:

http://www.projectrho.com/public_htm...spacesuits.php

...Only with a bigger viewing dome, as this baby would be modified with emphasis on sensing rather than manipulation.



Finney could cram himself inside for the priming ops, but the likeliest scenario at premature jettison would be that he'd be sucked out with the suit/pod, but without the benefit of being inside...
The cavity as depicted in TOS-R doesn't seem very deep but it is possible for such a ion sensor pod to work.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...rtialhd003.jpg

Although they should've made that more obvious with the repair crew flying the replacement part there since the replacement piece looks only like the transparent bubble dome and the ring. There does not appear to be anything attached to it.

Well, let's see regardless of whether the pod was meant to be launched during routine ops or jettisoned in an emergency the ways Finney could've died since they were not mentioned are:

  1. Finney is in the pod when it is jettisoned, carrying the pod danger away from the ship.
  2. Finney is half-way out of the pod when it is jettisoned and exposed to space. The design of the interface to the ship doesn't have a pressure door that cuts him in half.
  3. Finney is half-way out of the pod when it is jettisoned and exposed to space. The design of the interface to the ship has a pressure door that cuts him in half.
  4. Finney is out of the pod but the interface doesn't have a pressure door and he is sucked out into space.
Or he survives:

  1. Finney is out of the pod but the interface does have a pressure door and he suffers mild depressurization symptoms.
  2. Finney is out of the pod but the interface does have a pressure door and he is wearing a space suit and is okay.
  3. Finney is sucked out but he's wearing a space suit and survives.

Last edited by blssdwlf; October 19 2012 at 02:04 PM.
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Old October 20 2012, 06:00 PM   #47
Robert Comsol
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
"Well, let's see regardless of whether the pod was meant to be launched during routine ops or jettisoned in an emergency the ways Finney could've died since they were not mentioned are:
  1. Finney is in the pod when it is jettisoned, carrying the pod danger away from the ship.
  2. Finney is half-way out of the pod when it is jettisoned and exposed to space. The design of the interface to the ship doesn't have a pressure door that cuts him in half.
  3. Finney is half-way out of the pod when it is jettisoned and exposed to space. The design of the interface to the ship has a pressure door that cuts him in half.
  4. Finney is out of the pod but the interface doesn't have a pressure door and he is sucked out into space."
I wholeheartedly agree and this scene gives us an idea what everybody thought happened to Finney:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU1VZld8kUs


What I do not understand is why there is still this discussion (I salute Peter's patience).


It's was designed as a running light for the VFX Enterprise model and is clearly revealed as a running light in TOS.


Bob
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Old October 21 2012, 08:18 AM   #48
SonicRanger
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
What I do not understand is why there is still this discussion (I salute Peter's patience).

It's was designed as a running light for the VFX Enterprise model and is clearly revealed as a running light in TOS.

Bob
There is a discussion because not everyone agrees with you.

Various shapes were illuminated equally on the original model.

Can you show me a single Matt Jefferies sketch or vintage blueprint that labels that as a running light?

For TOS to "clearly reveal" that it was a running light, we'd need Scotty telling Kirk that his crews just changed that running light bulbs on both sides of the shuttlebay.
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Old October 21 2012, 10:40 AM   #49
Robert Comsol
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
"There is a discussion because not everyone agrees with you."
No, you are confusing the intention of the thread (discussion about the exterior surface markings) with the detour it has taken (identification of a surface structure, whose function has been abundantly established in the original and un-revised series)

Fact # 1: The light bulb wasn't there on the pilot episodes VFX (Pike-)Enterprise model. When the model was altered, i.e. lowering of bridge dome, removal of yellow airlock platforms near the port and starboard running lights on the upper side of the saucer (back to the original thread for a second) and design change of the warp engines (e.g. addition of the spheres to the engines' aft) this particular light below the flight deck's starboard side was added.

Fact # 2: In every shot where Kirk's original TOS Enterprise (the one with the warp engines' spheres) makes a pass in front of the camera that allows a good look at the bulb's location, you, me and everybody else can clearly see that this light bulb turns on-off-on-off etc.

I therefore think it's pretty fair to conclude that we are looking at a running light because everybody who is not blind should have the ability to see it.

(I should also add that in most other shots of TOS-R there is neither a bulb or a flashing light at this location)

Bob
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Old October 21 2012, 06:36 PM   #50
BK613
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

It's a blinking light bulb, which is even visible in the opening original FX for Court Martial as Kirk's log recounts the severe ion storm. And later as the sequence is reused again in the same episode. And no wonder that it blinks, as MJ and GR were aviation guys; ships don't have blinking nav lights but aircraft do.

You can see the bulb's installation in this xray image at the Smithsonian ASM.

--------------added this----------
There is no body nor is the pod recovered else Cogley couldn't proclaim "Finney is not dead!" So I think there is a strong implication that Finney was really lost and presumed dead. No air, ran out of air, couldn't survive in the ion storm, etc
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Old October 21 2012, 10:03 PM   #51
Robert Comsol
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Terror Grin wrote: View Post
"It's a blinking light bulb, which is even visible in the opening original FX for Court Martial as Kirk's log recounts the severe ion storm."
We are ditched! You are aware that the ion pod advocates will now tell us that once the pod has been jettisoned there's a blinking light that visually signals repair personnel that a new ion pod needs to be installed.

And the rationalization that we see this blinking light in every shot of he original footage with the post-Pike Enterprise will be that they lost another ion pod but hadn't yet the time to replace it...

Bob
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Old October 22 2012, 03:39 AM   #52
blssdwlf
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
Various shapes were illuminated equally on the original model.
Yet there were only 4 lights that blinked. And no, we're not revisiting a certain TNG episode about there being "5 lights"

The two lights that blinked at the ventral edge of the saucer and the two lights on the engineering hull, near the shuttle hatch.

Are you suggesting then that the other three lights are "ion pods"?

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
Can you show me a single Matt Jefferies sketch or vintage blueprint that labels that as a running light?
I would hope you mean "vintage blueprint" as "non-fan-created blueprint". In any case, is there one from MJ that labels it as an ion pod?

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
For TOS to "clearly reveal" that it was a running light, we'd need Scotty telling Kirk that his crews just changed that running light bulbs on both sides of the shuttlebay.
I'd argue instead that those two blinking lights that flank the shuttlebay are some type of retractable sensors or special-purpose lights because they apparently can retract and be covered with a flush door when not needed.

In TOS, they wouldn't be for an ion pod since there are two of them and they would've been referred to as "ion podS" and Kirk would have two jettison buttons for Port and Starboard or to Jettison Ion PodS (as in multiple). As far as TOS goes, the Ion Pod's look and location will forever be a mystery.

In TOS-R, we could argue that ONLY the Starboard-side blinking light was replaced with an unseen external Ion Pod attachment that is not the same as the lightbulb dome we see being used to cover up the opening during the repairs. That way, it still satisfies ONE pod to jettison since only ONE pod was attached for just flying into an ion storm to take readings. If they didn't have the emergency, they would've waited for a scheduled stop at a starbase to swap the pod for the old blinking bulb.
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Old October 22 2012, 12:10 PM   #53
Timo
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Yet there were only 4 lights that blinked.
The big round thing at the very bow of the saucer blinked, too. On occasion. At other times, it did not. Another odd "marking" or fixture of the original ship to discuss...

Occasional blinking is quite prevalent in Star Trek. The E-D was notorious for the sometimes-present, sometimes-absent blinking atop the secondary hull, from a location that did not have an obvious lighting fixture in close-ups. We don't know the in-universe role of such blinking, but it doesn't appear to be navigation as such, or else it wouldn't disappear when most needed - in scenes of rendezvous and formation flying.

is there one from MJ that labels it as an ion pod?
Why would there be? MJ didn't design the Enterprise. He only designed the beginnings of what would eventually become the Enterprise; the ion pod was added by writer Mankiewicz, and it sounds highly unlikely that Mankiewicz would have gone to the trouble of figuring out where the thing goes in the ship, or bothered anybody else with such meaningless trivia. That's a job for obsessed fans!

In TOS, they wouldn't be for an ion pod since there are two of them and they would've been referred to as "ion podS"
a) Only if both are "ion" pods. If they just happen to be pods, of which one is of the ion variant, no prob.

b) And/or only if two were available during "Court Martial". It would make overall plot sense if the ship had previous experience on ion storms and Finney thus wouldn't have to build his nefarious plot on completely unique (and therefore suspicious) circumstances; perhaps the other pod was already expended? Remember the opposition expressed in previous pages at the idea that there would only be one pod in existence? Two is an excellent compromise that still keeps an ion storm hunt as a suitably rare event and opportunity that warrants the taking of extreme risks.

c) And let's not forget the concept of "the" transporter room...

As far as TOS goes, the Ion Pod's look and location will forever be a mystery.
Sure. But not as far as TOS-R goes - and the two aren't in contradiction in anything but the reuse of ill-fitting footage, which always was an internal, inexcusable TOS problem anyway.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old October 22 2012, 01:04 PM   #54
blssdwlf
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Timo wrote: View Post
Yet there were only 4 lights that blinked.
The big round thing at the very bow of the saucer blinked, too. On occasion. At other times, it did not. Another odd "marking" or fixture of the original ship to discuss...
Hmm - which one was that?


Timo wrote: View Post
is there one from MJ that labels it as an ion pod?
Why would there be? MJ didn't design the Enterprise.
Well since we obsessed fans are so fond of referencing his thoughts and work on the initial Enterprise that he designed then he seems like a good starting point. That and I was checking if Sonic Ranger had a reference from MJ.

Timo wrote: View Post
In TOS, they wouldn't be for an ion pod since there are two of them and they would've been referred to as "ion podS"
a) Only if both are "ion" pods. If they just happen to be pods, of which one is of the ion variant, no prob.

b) And/or only if two were available during "Court Martial". It would make overall plot sense if the ship had previous experience on ion storms and Finney thus wouldn't have to build his nefarious plot on completely unique (and therefore suspicious) circumstances; perhaps the other pod was already expended? Remember the opposition expressed in previous pages at the idea that there would only be one pod in existence? Two is an excellent compromise that still keeps an ion storm hunt as a suitably rare event and opportunity that warrants the taking of extreme risks.
That brings up an interesting point. TOS-R never identifies that cavity and replacement cover as an ion pod. Ever. As far as the episode goes, it could be just a blown light bulb that is part of the "considerable damage". TOS-R's Ion Pod still will remain a mystery.
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Old October 22 2012, 01:25 PM   #55
Timo
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Hmm - which one was that?
"Where No Man" probably has the most iconic appearance:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...hasgone001.jpg

A nice bow shot with lots of illumination, including the bridge front panel glow - and the centermost of the three round things at the saucer rim is blinking, while the other two are dark.

Well since we obsessed fans are so fond of referencing his thoughts and work on the initial Enterprise that he designed then he seems like a good starting point. That and I was checking if Sonic Ranger had a reference from MJ.
I second the sentiments, but thinking that MJ had anything to do with the ion pod sounds like a long shot...

TOS-R never identifies that cavity and replacement cover as an ion pod. Ever. As far as the episode goes, it could be just a blown light bulb that is part of the "considerable damage". TOS-R's Ion Pod still will remain a mystery.
Hmm, true enough. But identifying this odd fixture as an ion pod is an excellent match for what we are being told about ion pods, and the fanprint precedent and its possible connection to author intent exists, so I'm ready to declare the mystery solved for the TOS-R part. But far be it from me to close down venues of speculation: the more interpretations I can loudly declare plausible, the better.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old October 22 2012, 01:55 PM   #56
blssdwlf
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Timo wrote: View Post
Hmm - which one was that?
"Where No Man" probably has the most iconic appearance:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...hasgone001.jpg

A nice bow shot with lots of illumination, including the bridge front panel glow - and the centermost of the three round things at the saucer rim is blinking, while the other two are dark.
Awesome. Thanks for the shot info, Timo.

Timo wrote: View Post
TOS-R never identifies that cavity and replacement cover as an ion pod. Ever. As far as the episode goes, it could be just a blown light bulb that is part of the "considerable damage". TOS-R's Ion Pod still will remain a mystery.
Hmm, true enough. But identifying this odd fixture as an ion pod is an excellent match for what we are being told about ion pods, and the fanprint precedent and its possible connection to author intent exists, so I'm ready to declare the mystery solved for the TOS-R part. But far be it from me to close down venues of speculation: the more interpretations I can loudly declare plausible, the better.
The funny thing is looking at TOS-R without the extra knowledge of being told that it is where the ion pod supposedly was (from an Okuda interview?) we don't know what that is. When we first see the cavity in TOS-R, Kirk's dialogue mentions a dead crewman and "the damage is considerable". The most the casual observer could draw from those shots is that a light bulb got damaged and/or the light bulb exploded, killing a crewmember on the other side. Since no character in TOS-R points out what the ion pod looked like or where it it was makes that bulb even a less likely target location and we're just left with guys in space suits repairing a broken light bulb.
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Old October 22 2012, 01:58 PM   #57
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

...But with the telltale symmetric charring of four "explosive bolts" or "separation thrusters" around the hole!

Timo Saloniemi
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Old October 22 2012, 02:30 PM   #58
blssdwlf
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

Timo wrote: View Post
...But with the telltale symmetric charring of four "explosive bolts" or "separation thrusters" around the hole!
Or the telltale charring from a popped starship light bulb. You'd imagine it would make quite a pop if one blew out
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Old October 22 2012, 03:29 PM   #59
Timo
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

...At four points 90 degrees apart, each spewing soot in a 90 degree fan pattern from those points, rather than from the center of the whole thingamabob? I think the TOS-R folks went the extra mile to show the marks of the jettisoning process here.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old October 22 2012, 04:29 PM   #60
blssdwlf
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Re: exterior surface markings of Kirk's Enterprise

With that pattern they showed rockets firing into each other if you think those are rocket burns. http://Www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/history/sp-350/i4-8.jpg

They look also like an explosion pattern with the bulb framework producing the 4 direction pattern.

Besides, what in tos ever got rocket burns? Weapons damage and explosions, but rocket burns?

Still looks like a blown light bulb.
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