teacake does Stargate: punch it

[teacake]

The Quest pt 1 and 2: That was a rather classic tale with an ending full of suspense.

I liked the random transporting to new planets. It's reminding me of some scene in some other show where people are rapidly moved through places which change suddenly, some of them very inhospitable. Can't quite recall what it is, unless I'm just inflating All Our Yesterdays and the changing scenes in the portal.

I like Morena Baccarin looking like a WoW chick. Way to go on the old school shoulders Morena!




I liked the dragon, I really very much like dragons which means I can forgive their inclusion in anything.

I'm pretty sure it was Sanctuary that had the most embarrassing dragons ever (correct me if I'm wrong) but I forgave them.



Nicely done too.




All the riddle stuff was incredibly silly though I guess it's in keeping with the myths and stories and ideals these ancients were spewing into humanity's history.

Morena really is lovely to look at, quite other worldly at times, though not exactly a riveting actor. Still, not complaining




Also SO SAD they had to go and kill Baal.. but there are plenty more!

[AJ86]

I can forgive quite a lot when it comes to CG, but in all honestly I thought the dragon (that's really awyvern) was fucking dire. Otherwise I enjoyed the episode a lot. The fantasy storytelling style spin on the mythology is something I wish they'd done more of.

[teacake]

Yeah I am usually not one for those fantasy spins AT ALL but I enjoyed that part.. or perhaps I'm just so converted to Stargate past dislikes are less important.

Line in the Sand: Very nice how the title comes from some Ori tome. Tobin's unraveling when forced to spend time alone with Vala worked well, peanuts character that he is. Though really I would expect him to kill himself if he actually faces what he's done. And poor Carter, that wound looked terrible.

Also, I know this was some belief vs faith deal and I know macaroons mean different things in different countries but weren't those cookies BURNT?

[Sephiroth]

My favorite thing to do is to troll Renaissance Fairs by showing up dressed as a member of an SG team. Oh, and teacake, shoulder armor like that is called a spaulder.

[teacake]

I know, it's just in WoW that slot is called "shoulders", though some of the names of the specific armour include the word spaulders. Hey I once won a spelling game by remembering the word "glaives" which I learned from WoW. Anyway they just reminded me vividly of vanilla basic shoulders. Buh.

[The Wormhole]

teacake wrote:

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Also, I know this was some belief vs faith deal

Which IMO, this episode fails at. It tries to tell the classic story of religious fanatics intrepreting their holy words as an excuse to brutalize their unbelieving enemies, even though there is nothing in said holy text condoning murdering and being nasty. Indeed, Tomin seems conflicted when the Prior uses the passage as about the line in the sand to justify eradicating the village, which sickens him to think the Prior can pervert the good words of the gods as an excuse to do something so horrible.

That's all well and good and they're obviously making commentary on similar incidents on Earth where great tragedies have ocurred due to religious fanatics re-interpreting their teachings. But it has no real relevance here. We know the Ori are evil and would condone the brutal murder of inoccents who don't believe in them. It just so happens the Book of Origin is worded in a way that leaves things open to intrepretation.

[gturner]

teacake wrote:

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The Quest pt 1 and 2: That was a rather classic tale with an ending full of suspense.

I liked the random transporting to new planets. It's reminding me of some scene in some other show where people are rapidly moved through places which change suddenly, some of them very inhospitable. Can't quite recall what it is, unless I'm just inflating All Our Yesterdays and the changing scenes in the portal.

Perhaps The Adjustment Bureau with Matt Damon? They would open doors and the doors would lead to a new location in the city, and it also involved a chase through such doors.

Wormhole, I agree with your take on that. It's like the writers were a bit confused about whether they were portraying an evil religion with evil gods or a religion which was evil because it had been corrupted, both common themes in Stargate but ones which shouldn't be mashed together because it doesn't work. Perhaps they needed Origin to have some good elements to explain why some like Tobin wouldn't see how evil it was and would argue that it's <i>supposed</i> to be good and just.

[AJ86]

The Wormhole wrote:

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Which IMO, this episode fails at. It tries to tell the classic story of religious fanatics intrepreting their holy words as an excuse to brutalize their unbelieving enemies, even though there is nothing in said holy text condoning murdering and being nasty. Indeed, Tomin seems conflicted when the Prior uses the passage as about the line in the sand to justify eradicating the village, which sickens him to think the Prior can pervert the good words of the gods as an excuse to do something so horrible.

That's all well and good and they're obviously making commentary on similar incidents on Earth where great tragedies have ocurred due to religious fanatics re-interpreting their teachings. But it has no real relevance here. We know the Ori are evil and would condone the brutal murder of inoccents who don't believe in them. It just so happens the Book of Origin is worded in a way that leaves things open to intrepretation.

I'm not sure what you mean. From the perspective of Tomin or any modern day monotheists it's the same situation, the only difference being that his "Gods" actually exist. The Ori aren't 'evil', they actually started out with the best intentions according to Merlin, which is of course when Origin would have been created.

[gturner]

It would've been more interesting if they weren't "evil", just wrong from our perspective. For example, suppose they needed worshippers to maintain their powers (as was given) but really were using their powers to help and patiently advance their followers towards eventual ascension?

That would've given us a look into what our galaxy might be like if the Ascended Ancients had acted as shepherds for humanity, while presenting a nice contrast to the Goa'uld as evil false gods, showing that good "true" gods might be worse, which reminds me of this C.S. Lewis quote:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

It raises the question of why we'd resort to war instead of having Daniel convince them that they're wrong. But the established plot would serve there, too. We're just as primitive (evolutionarily) as their followers, and obviously the humans in our galaxy need guidance just as much as those in the Ori galaxy, so the Ori would "benevolently" extend their guidance and protection here once our existence became known to them. I'd liken it to a Soviet invasion by people who really are convinced that Stalinism is what you need, or Spanish armies trying to save your soul.

Remove a few of the more brutal aspects of the Ori religion, give the followers a slightly more comfortable existence (perhaps even as sophisticated as the Tolan), and converts would be much more plausible, as would strong dissent over our war against them. The plots would probably be richer as a result, supporting a bit more speculation and introspection depending on the downsides to their path of Origin.

Perhaps this hypothetical, alternate Origin is too rigid, with all of a follower's actions and stations mapped out for them for life. Perhaps star travel is deemed unnecessary. Perhaps disorder and debate is forbidden (because the Ori actually know the correct answers), thus their insistence on universal agreement. All of this is very close to what was actually portrayed, so maybe making the Ori such obvious bad guys (lying to their followers, who were merely being used to maintain the Ori's power) was actually unnecessary and even detrimental to the story. Having our heroes have to reluctantly kill "gods" who are advanced, wise, powerful, and good to preserve us as we are would be pretty interesting, like having to wack Thor over a difference in our perspectives.

[The Wormhole]

AJ86 wrote:

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I'm not sure what you mean. From the perspective of Tomin or any modern day monotheists it's the same situation, the only difference being that his "Gods" actually exist. The Ori aren't 'evil', they actually started out with the best intentions according to Merlin, which is of course when Origin would have been created.

Well, then we get into the whole debate of how do you define "evil?" Obviously, the Ori don't think of themselves as evil, and the Priors are responsible for justifying their actions as the necessary will of the gods and so on.

But the Ori are evil, or at the very least villainous. They essentially planets, whole galaxies, and force the people they conquer to worship them as gods and leach of their life force as a means of staying alive, or however that works with their power coming from their worshippers. Those who don't submit are to be executed, in fact the Ori themselves rewarded the Village Administrator in S9 for executing the people Daniel and Vala stone swapped into by making him a Prior.

Maybe they did have the best of intentions starting off, but these actions are still evil. And let's be honest, though Tomin seems to believe the Book of Origin condemns destroying the village, if the Ori themselves were aware of it, they'd have no problems and would probably insist on it. Making the whole message of this episode a rather empty one.

[AJ86]

I still don't understand what you mean. What difference does it make that the Ori are now evil and would now not mind the message? Or hell, even if they would have endorsed it from the start? The social commentary is that this sort of scripture can (and will) be interpreted to suit the agenda of the person interpreting it, the motives of the Ori, or even whether they exist or not isn't really relevant. The point they're making isn't that religion is essentially good until it's corrupted or warped, it's that religioun is a powerful tool you can use to justify just about anything.

[The Wormhole]

AJ86 wrote:

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The point they're making isn't that religion is essentially good until it's corrupted or warped, it's that religioun is a powerful tool you can use to justify just about anything.

Exactly, although in this case, the evil motives which the Priors want to justify really is in line with what their gods the Ori want. So all those scenes in which Vala tries to convince Tomin the Book of Origin doesn't actually say anything about murdering people and being nasty are kind of pointless. Even if Origin doesn't outright say anything about killing unbelievers, we (the audience) know that is what the Ori want. For that matter, Vala was with Daniel when he communicated directly with the Ori, not to mention her own daughter is an Ori incarnate, so she should know the Ori really don't have a problem with being a douchebag, even if their scripture leaves things open to intrepretation. So while I get the message the episode is trying to convey, it's one that has no real relevance to the Ori storyline. It really doesn't matter how you intrepret the worrd of the Book of Origin, the Ori are villains and encourage their followers to do villainous things.

[AJ86]

The Wormhole wrote:

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Exactly, although in this case, the evil motives which the Priors want to justify really is in line with what their gods the Ori want. So all those scenes in which Vala tries to convince Tomin the Book of Origin doesn't actually say anything about murdering people and being nasty are kind of pointless. Even if Origin doesn't outright say anything about killing unbelievers, we (the audience) know that is what the Ori want. For that matter, Vala was with Daniel when he communicated directly with the Ori, not to mention her own daughter is an Ori incarnate, so she should know the Ori really don't have a problem with being a douchebag, even if their scripture leaves things open to intrepretation. So while I get the message the episode is trying to convey, it's one that has no real relevance to the Ori storyline. It really doesn't matter how you intrepret the worrd of the Book of Origin, the Ori are villains and encourage their followers to do villainous things.

What really doesn't matter is whether the Ori endorse what the Prior is doing or not. It's irrelevant. Social commentary aside, the scene isn't about them, it's about Tomin.

[bigdaddy]

gturner wrote:

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It would've been more interesting if they weren't "evil", just wrong from our perspective. For example, suppose they needed worshippers to maintain their powers (as was given) but really were using their powers to help and patiently advance their followers towards eventual ascension?

That would've given us a look into what our galaxy might be like if the Ascended Ancients had acted as shepherds for humanity, while presenting a nice contrast to the Goa'uld as evil false gods, showing that good "true" gods might be worse

I completely agree. I remember watching the Ori storyline thinking "If they just made them more than 2D new Goulds this would be a lot better".

[teacake]

I think they (they being the writers or perhaps just me) were getting off on the visual of ascended beings being absolute shits rather than noble yet removed spiritual beings.