"Children of Time" Plot-hole Question

Admiral_Sisko · October 6 2012, 01:20 AM

There's an obvious plot-hole in the episode "Children of Time" that I've always been curious about. Odo is unable to hold his shape because of the effects of the barrier sounding the planet, but his older self has learned how to counteract the barrier's effects. He's also "gotten better at shape-shifting," as evidence by his improved ability to imitate humanoid facial features.

Near the episode's conclusion, the older Odo links with his counterpart, so that the younger Odo would be aware of events that transpired while he was regenerating. This being the case, why didn't Odo's shape-shifting abilities improve as a result of the experience?

I do, of course, understand the logistical reason for not making the change. Odo's lack of facial features was part of his character, and a sudden change may have confused viewers who missed "Children of Time's" original airing. I'm also aware of the other plot-hole in which no explanation is given for how the other Odo didn't develop the disease that nearly wiped out the Great Link (beyond the fact that the idea hadn't been conceived yet). However, would it not have made sense from a character-development standpoint for Odo to have made significant improvements in his shape-shifting ability?

Pavonis · October 6 2012, 03:36 AM

I don't think that that is technically a plot hole, as Odo's morphing ability isn't really plot relevant. But, just because his future self has shared the memories of being able to better imitate humanoid features, it doesn't follow that younger Odo would have the ability suddenly.

Odo has linked with other changelings before, changelings who were able to perfectly imitate humanoids, and he never picked up the ability from them, either. It seems to be literally a matter of practice. If you shake hands with a body builder, you don't become muscular, do you? You actually have to work out yourself to get the muscles. I can only assume the same is true of Odo.

E-DUB · October 6 2012, 03:45 AM

Not exactly the same thing. "The drop becomes the ocean, the ocean becomes the drop." The producers may have missed a bet by not having Odo able to do faces progressively better as the series went from season to season.

Admiral_Sisko · October 6 2012, 04:01 AM

Pavonis wrote:

I don't think that that is technically a plot hole, as Odo's morphing ability isn't really plot relevant. But, just because his future self has shared the memories of being able to better imitate humanoid features, it doesn't follow that younger Odo would have the ability suddenly.

Odo has linked with other changelings before, changelings who were able to perfectly imitate humanoids, and he never picked up the ability from them, either. It seems to be literally a matter of practice. If you shake hands with a body builder, you don't become muscular, do you? You actually have to work out yourself to get the muscles. I can only assume the same is true of Odo.

Not a good analogy, as it doesn't accurately depict how linking works. Changelings describe the Great Link as a "merging of thought and form," which implies that ideas, emotions, and memories are shared between both parties of the endeavor. Shaking hands with a body builder wouldn't allow one to become muscular, but sharing the thoughts of a body builder should provide one with ideas on how to duplicate the other person's achievements.

Pavonis · October 6 2012, 04:27 AM

Yeah, linking would give Odo the idea of how to improve his morphing. But it wouldn't be instantaneous. At best, he'd probably just learn that he needs to practice more. Like for 200 years or so.

R. Star · October 6 2012, 10:26 AM

Suppose an older version of you came back in time to when you were 15 and showed you how to drive. It would still take you practice to master the art no matter how good the instruction was.

Worf'sParmach · October 7 2012, 02:37 AM

Agree with the others. Though there are definitely plot holes inherant in stories like COT, this isn't one of them.

Paul Weaver · October 8 2012, 12:38 AM

Children of time was certainly after the time odo was infected, so the only explanation would be the radiation from the rings caused the disease to remain dormant. Or perhaps the fact odo took years to learn how to shift meant the disease never took hold.

Tiberius · October 8 2012, 01:11 AM

Zombie Redshirt wrote:

Suppose an older version of you came back in time to when you were 15 and showed you how to drive. It would still take you practice to master the art no matter how good the instruction was.

But the link isn't like that, I don't think. A more apt analogy would be, "Suppose an older version of you came back in time to when you were 15 and and gave you his memories and knowledge about how to drive."

R. Star · October 9 2012, 06:02 PM

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote:

Zombie Redshirt wrote:

Suppose an older version of you came back in time to when you were 15 and showed you how to drive. It would still take you practice to master the art no matter how good the instruction was.

But the link isn't like that, I don't think. A more apt analogy would be, "Suppose an older version of you came back in time to when you were 15 and and gave you his memories and knowledge about how to drive."

You can have all the memories and knowledge in the world. You can get every story, experience told to you, you can read every book, but you're still going to have to get behind a wheel and figure it out and you won't be perfect at first.

Pavonis · October 9 2012, 06:20 PM

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote:

Zombie Redshirt wrote:

Suppose an older version of you came back in time to when you were 15 and showed you how to drive. It would still take you practice to master the art no matter how good the instruction was.

But the link isn't like that, I don't think. A more apt analogy would be, "Suppose an older version of you came back in time to when you were 15 and and gave you his memories and knowledge about how to drive."

Is the changeling-to-changeling memory sharing perfect? Is it everlasting? Is there perhaps an element of "muscle memory" that needs to be taken into account when shape-shifting? Having the memory of being able to do something doesn't necessarily translate into the perfect ability to do so. Maybe changeling linking is more impressionistic and dream-like and less like copying files between computers.

Even in the Great Link, the other changelings were able to mislead Odo into thinking Gowron was a changeling. So I doubt that changeling linking is a perfect method for memory transfer.

Besides, in the context of the episode "Children of Time" if Old Odo "never existed", then Young Odo could not have any memories from him! We know that's not what happened, but perhaps the memory faded after the incident due to the timeline shift.

Tiberius · October 10 2012, 01:35 AM

Zombie Redshirt wrote:

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote:

Zombie Redshirt wrote:

Suppose an older version of you came back in time to when you were 15 and showed you how to drive. It would still take you practice to master the art no matter how good the instruction was.

But the link isn't like that, I don't think. A more apt analogy would be, "Suppose an older version of you came back in time to when you were 15 and and gave you his memories and knowledge about how to drive."

You can have all the memories and knowledge in the world. You can get every story, experience told to you, you can read every book, but you're still going to have to get behind a wheel and figure it out and you won't be perfect at first.

I'm not talking about just words, I'm talking about the memories of the actual experience.

R. Star · October 10 2012, 01:39 AM

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote:

Zombie Redshirt wrote:

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote:

But the link isn't like that, I don't think. A more apt analogy would be, "Suppose an older version of you came back in time to when you were 15 and and gave you his memories and knowledge about how to drive."

You can have all the memories and knowledge in the world. You can get every story, experience told to you, you can read every book, but you're still going to have to get behind a wheel and figure it out and you won't be perfect at first.

I'm not talking about just words, I'm talking about the memories of the actual experience.

I addressed memories in my previous post you quoted. I still don't think that's a substitute for doing it yourself.

The Borg Queen · October 10 2012, 02:37 AM

I think it's like the difference between theory and practise. He may be aware that he CAN do it, but without the amount of practise his amorphous form doesn't have the equivalent of "muscle memory" to do the more subtle elements of shapeshifting.

Tiberius · October 10 2012, 03:23 AM

Zombie Redshirt wrote:

I addressed memories in my previous post you quoted. I still don't think that's a substitute for doing it yourself.

Can you ride a bike?

October 6 2012, 01:20 AM	#1
Admiral_Sisko Lieutenant Commander	"Children of Time" Plot-hole Question There's an obvious plot-hole in the episode "Children of Time" that I've always been curious about. Odo is unable to hold his shape because of the effects of the barrier sounding the planet, but his older self has learned how to counteract the barrier's effects. He's also "gotten better at shape-shifting," as evidence by his improved ability to imitate humanoid facial features. Near the episode's conclusion, the older Odo links with his counterpart, so that the younger Odo would be aware of events that transpired while he was regenerating. This being the case, why didn't Odo's shape-shifting abilities improve as a result of the experience? I do, of course, understand the logistical reason for not making the change. Odo's lack of facial features was part of his character, and a sudden change may have confused viewers who missed "Children of Time's" original airing. I'm also aware of the other plot-hole in which no explanation is given for how the other Odo didn't develop the disease that nearly wiped out the Great Link (beyond the fact that the idea hadn't been conceived yet). However, would it not have made sense from a character-development standpoint for Odo to have made significant improvements in his shape-shifting ability?

October 6 2012, 03:36 AM	#2
Pavonis Commodore Location: South Dakota	Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question I don't think that that is technically a plot hole, as Odo's morphing ability isn't really plot relevant. But, just because his future self has shared the memories of being able to better imitate humanoid features, it doesn't follow that younger Odo would have the ability suddenly. Odo has linked with other changelings before, changelings who were able to perfectly imitate humanoids, and he never picked up the ability from them, either. It seems to be literally a matter of practice. If you shake hands with a body builder, you don't become muscular, do you? You actually have to work out yourself to get the muscles. I can only assume the same is true of Odo.

October 6 2012, 03:45 AM	#3
E-DUB Commander	Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question Not exactly the same thing. "The drop becomes the ocean, the ocean becomes the drop." The producers may have missed a bet by not having Odo able to do faces progressively better as the series went from season to season.

October 6 2012, 04:27 AM	#5
Pavonis Commodore Location: South Dakota	Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question Yeah, linking would give Odo the idea of how to improve his morphing. But it wouldn't be instantaneous. At best, he'd probably just learn that he needs to practice more. Like for 200 years or so.

October 6 2012, 10:26 AM	#6
R. Star Commodore Location: Terra 3	Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question Suppose an older version of you came back in time to when you were 15 and showed you how to drive. It would still take you practice to master the art no matter how good the instruction was. __________________ "I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams

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October 7 2012, 02:37 AM	#7
Worf'sParmach Commander Location: Plano, TX	Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question Agree with the others. Though there are definitely plot holes inherant in stories like COT, this isn't one of them. __________________ Obsessing over every detail in the Star Trek Universe since the 1990s Check out my fanfic (pretty please ): http://www.fanfiction.net/~ginomo

October 8 2012, 12:38 AM	#8
Paul Weaver Fleet Captain Location: Manchester	Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question Children of time was certainly after the time odo was infected, so the only explanation would be the radiation from the rings caused the disease to remain dormant. Or perhaps the fact odo took years to learn how to shift meant the disease never took hold.

October 10 2012, 02:37 AM	#14
The Borg Queen Rear Admiral Location: Does it matter?	Re: "Children of Time" Plot-hole Question I think it's like the difference between theory and practise. He may be aware that he CAN do it, but without the amount of practise his amorphous form doesn't have the equivalent of "muscle memory" to do the more subtle elements of shapeshifting. __________________ .