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Old November 11 2012, 02:39 AM   #1
The Overlord
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Species 8472: What were their motives?

Species 8472: What were their motives? In Scorpion they seemed to be a bunch a genocidal social Darwinists who believed that strong must destroy the weak, so they had to kill every other living thing in the galaxy. Yet in "In the Flesh" they seem far less aggressive, suddenly their motive is just wanting to be left alone.

Doesn't the alliance with the Borg in Scorpion, not make sense if Species 8472 were not as evil they first appeared to be? Doesn't that mean Janeway made a really bad call in scorpion, if Species 8472 was not the greater of two evils?
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Old November 11 2012, 02:51 AM   #2
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

Well that's a given.

Was getting rid of Hitler worth getting into bed with Stalin?

Was getting rid of Gadaffi, trying to g... Standing up to Gadaffi worth getting into bed and arming Saddam Hussein?

There's a novel, which might have been written before caretaker came out, where Kathy is annoyed because she can't broker peace between these dinky little warfleets, and eventually attacks both sides until they team up to destroy the Federation, who they are not completely aware is on the other side of the galaxy.
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Old November 11 2012, 02:53 AM   #3
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
Yet in "In the Flesh" they seem far less aggressive, suddenly their motive is just wanting to be left alone.
8472's first contact with Voyager must have had quite an effect on them. Got them to change their tune, so to speak.
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Old November 11 2012, 03:02 AM   #4
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The Overlord wrote: View Post
Yet in "In the Flesh" they seem far less aggressive, suddenly their motive is just wanting to be left alone.
8472's first contact with Voyager must have had quite an effect on them. Got them to change their tune, so to speak.
It makes them seem kinda wimpy though, Voyager gives them a bloody nose and then they back down. Didn't they realize that committing galactic genocide would be a very bloody affair? You can likely expect a few casualties if you declared on every other species in the universe. They seemed to go through some pretty big villain decay, if they go from nightmarish creatures to poor misunderstood beings who want to be left alone and need a hug, in the space of couple episodes.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Well that's a given.

Was getting rid of Hitler worth getting into bed with Stalin?

Was getting rid of Gadaffi, trying to g... Standing up to Gadaffi worth getting into bed and arming Saddam Hussein?

There's a novel, which might have been written before caretaker came out, where Kathy is annoyed because she can't broker peace between these dinky little warfleets, and eventually attacks both sides until they team up to destroy the Federation, who they are not completely aware is on the other side of the galaxy.
But if Species 8472 goal was not galactic genocide, they were not akin to Hitler. So it be like allying with Stalin to defeat someone who turned out to be a big paper tiger.
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Old November 11 2012, 03:02 AM   #5
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

According to the 8472 pretending to be Boothby, they were just pretending to be scary as to make the Borg (And the Borg's allies on Voyager) run so that they wouldn't have to kill them all... Which is a policy that worked for both the power blocks from the 1980s.
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Old November 11 2012, 03:05 AM   #6
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
It makes them seem kinda wimpy though, Voyager gives them a bloody nose and then they back down. Didn't they realize that committing galactic genocide would be a very bloody affair? You can likely expect a few casualties if you declared on every other species in the universe. They seemed to go through some pretty big villain decay, if they go from nightmarish creatures to poor misunderstood beings who want to be left alone and need a hug, in the space of couple episodes.
That's Voyager for you.

Invent the most power alien species ever that can destory the Borg.

One episode later, turn them into wimps that can be killed with a torpedo invented by Voyager.
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Old November 11 2012, 03:12 AM   #7
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
According to the 8472 pretending to be Boothby, they were just pretending to be scary as to make the Borg (And the Borg's allies on Voyager) run so that they wouldn't have to kill them all... Which is a policy that worked for both the power blocks from the 1980s.
And yet Kes was reading malevolent thoughts from various members Species 8472, its easy to tell lies with your mouth, but keeping your true thoughts hidden from a telepath would be far harder. I think this comes of as a poorly done ret con, rather then natural character evolution. Frankly I preferred the scary version of Species 8472 in Scorpion, to the kinda of scared and sheepish version in "In the Flesh".
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Old November 11 2012, 03:25 AM   #8
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

You do remember that Kes was a shit teep?

She might have been coming into power in a couple episodes, but the girl had no control.... 8472 were also power telepaths, and was it that she was in their mind reading, or were they broadcasting into her mind... I mean there is precedence with Dee emphatically reading assholes light years away, but these bastards were thousands of miles apart from the dinky Ocampa yet we're supposed to believe that Kes could get a lock on these lads thoughts if they weren't helping her complete the connection and control the narrative?
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Old November 11 2012, 03:25 AM   #9
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

Perhaps the 8472s that were involved with the fight against the Borg were their armed forces, specifically trained to kill their enemies, and the 8472s from In The Flesh were just regular 8472 people or something?
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Old November 11 2012, 03:27 AM   #10
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

Regular people planning an invasion of the Alpha Quadrant?
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Old November 11 2012, 04:04 AM   #11
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Regular people planning an invasion of the Alpha Quadrant?
I never said they were nice people.
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Old November 11 2012, 04:09 AM   #12
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
You do remember that Kes was a shit teep?

She might have been coming into power in a couple episodes, but the girl had no control.... 8472 were also power telepaths, and was it that she was in their mind reading, or were they broadcasting into her mind... I mean there is precedence with Dee emphatically reading assholes light years away, but these bastards were thousands of miles apart from the dinky Ocampa yet we're supposed to believe that Kes could get a lock on these lads thoughts if they weren't helping her complete the connection and control the narrative?
It still doesn't make sense to send out malevolent thoughts, if the enemy they are fighting, the Borg, don't have telepathic powers and generally are not effected by emotions like fear. There is no point in trying to make yourself appear scarier then you are really are, when dealing with an enemy like the Borg. So who were they trying scare, random alien races they had no beef with, who had telepaths? What does that accomplish besides making new potential enemies?

Frankly with the raw power Species 8472 demonstrated, they didn't need to put on a scary front, the Borg clearly bit off more then they could chew when they invaded their space and no other race in the DQ would be suicidal to fight them, if they didn't have a reason to. If other races thought Species 8472 wanted to destroy them regardless, they would have reason to fight Species 8472, otherwise other alien races would just avoid contact with them.

This also makes Janeway look kinda foolish, that she made an alliance with the Borg based on Kes' telepathic impressions of Species 8472, so if Kes' impressions were wrong, she made one of the worst diplomatic and tactical errors in Star Fleet history. Species 8472 was planning on invading the federation because of Voyager's alliance with the Borg, so Janeway almost doomed the Federation with this error. Heck, letting Species 8472 continue their war with the Borg, would servilely weakened the Borg Collective, making things safer for Voyager and the universe as a whole.

Last edited by The Overlord; November 11 2012 at 05:09 AM.
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Old November 11 2012, 04:27 AM   #13
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

Purging the galaxy would have taken millions of years.

Spending three years wiping out the Borg and then going home for a breather that might just last forever, there is no conceivable reason for anyone in the Alpha Quadrant to follow them back into fluidic space to find out if 8472 is coming back to finish off the job.

The least 8472 could do and still call it a victory was destroy the Borg, and the Borg's allies.

Besides, after they killed Janeway, it really doesn't matter what they said to Janeway, and since they WERE going to kill her, it already didn't matter what they said to her as they said it.

I mean it's not like Enterprise was made of Cobinite or Voyager had a Photonic cannon, but wasn't it hilarious when the Klingon's didn't think they were stupid enough to fall for the same bluff which the Cardassians had 4 years earlier that DS9 had secretly been transformed into a death dealing gun platform.
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Old November 11 2012, 05:25 AM   #14
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Purging the galaxy would have taken millions of years.

Spending three years wiping out the Borg and then going home for a breather that might just last forever, there is no conceivable reason for anyone in the Alpha Quadrant to follow them back into fluidic space to find out if 8472 is coming back to finish off the job.

The least 8472 could do and still call it a victory was destroy the Borg, and the Borg's allies.

Besides, after they killed Janeway, it really doesn't matter what they said to Janeway, and since they WERE going to kill her, it already didn't matter what they said to her as they said it.

I mean it's not like Enterprise was made of Cobinite or Voyager had a Photonic cannon, but wasn't it hilarious when the Klingon's didn't think they were stupid enough to fall for the same bluff which the Cardassians had 4 years earlier that DS9 had secretly been transformed into a death dealing gun platform.
The thing is if they hadn't been giving malevolent thoughts, Voyager wouldn't have helped the Borg and that weapon never would have been developed. So who were they trying to fake out? Again I don't think these scare tactics would work against the Borg, they don't have telepathic powers and are generally not effected by emotions like fear. Besides why would the Borg care if Species 8472 are genocidal psychopaths or not? Species 8472 would be at war with the war if they were extreme social Darwinists or just want to be left alone, because of the incursions the Borg made into their realm. The Borg collective doesn't care about non Borg races, so pretending to be pure evil and genocidal wouldn't effect them, one way or the other.

And really pretending to be genocidal social Darwinists seems like overkill. Their raw power already gives non Borg races plenty of reason not to mess with them, but spreading the idea that they want to kill every single being in the galaxy, gives other races a reason to challenging them, reducing the chance they will be left alone.
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Old November 11 2012, 08:15 AM   #15
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Re: Species 8472: What were their motives?

8472 was going to destroy the Borg.

No pretence.

Remember World War Two?

I mentioned it earlier.

It was in all the papers.

What's a paper?

Anyway.

The US had two atom bombs.

Just two.

Boom.

Not so bad.

Boom.

Starting to get annoying.

The point is that Truman, threatened to continue bombing city after city unless Japan surrendered unconditionally.

Which they did, fearful of a third strike.

Even though the US only had two bombs.



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You win or you die.
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