Sons of Mogh... AWFUL ending

[lurok]

One thing that's always bugged me and sorry if this has been answered elsewhere: wtf happened to Martok's bitch-slapped son from Way Of The Warrior? Unless I missed something, feels like he's never mentioned again, and fact that Worf was the one who dishonored him doesn't seem any impediment to him being accepted into M's house.

[R. Star]

Cthulurok wrote:

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One thing that's always bugged me and sorry if this has been answered elsewhere: wtf happened to Martok's bitch-slapped son from Way Of The Warrior? Unless I missed something, feels like he's never mentioned again, and fact that Worf was the one who dishonored him doesn't seem any impediment to him being accepted into M's house.

Knowing Klingon customs he was probably dishonored for being slapped around like a little bitch and committed ritual suicide.

Actually J.G. Hertzler remembered Drax being he used him in his Left Hand of Destiny novels.

[Mage]

This is one of the things DS9 was powerfull in. By NOT coming up with tidy, neat little packages that left everybody happy. But sometimes having things ending in a way that made you feel uncomfortable. Made you feel that things weren't completely right.
That's what I found powerfull about the ending of Sons Of Mogh. Yeah, I don't agree with what Worf did. But the fact that DS9 had the stones to sometimes show other ways out then the clear, cookie-cutter perfect endings of TNG.... That's why I love DS9.

[FKnight]

I think the episode had a great ending. What was awful and very un-Klingon was what Worf did to Kurn and it pissed me off. That made the episode good.

[Edit_XYZ]

Kurn was suicidal. He wanted Worf to kill him; failing that, plan B was to kill himself by any means necessary.

Last time I checked, assisted suicide is illegal even when the victim suffers from an incurable, painful disease.
This is NOT a morally 'clean' thing to do. Quite the opposite.

Now - finding a way for your brother to live instead of snuffing him with a dagger is morally reprehensible?

As for memories - do you remember what you had for lunch on 14 august, when you were 7? We lose memories all the time.
There are examples of people who lost all their memories at once - amnesia. They didn't lose their personality - what made them who they were. They didn't became blank slates, vegetables.

Losing one's memories != dying. NOT even close.

[T'Girl]

Edit_XYZ wrote:

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Last time I checked, assisted suicide is illegal ...

Assisted suicide is legal in The Netherlands, Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg, and Columbia. In the United States it's legal in the states of Oregon, Washington and Montana.

We lose memories all the time.

Kurn didn't "lose" his memories, they were stripped from him without his permission. The being who was Kurn cease to exist, Worf's brother was no more. Although yes the body continued.

[Edit_XYZ]

T'Girl wrote:

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Assisted suicide is legal in The Netherlands, Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg, and Columbia. In the United States it's legal in the states of Oregon, Washington and Montana.

And what about the rest (read - vast majority) of the world?

Kurn didn't "lose" his memories, they were stripped from him without his permission. The being who was Kurn cease to exist, Worf's brother was no more. Although yes the body continued.

And memories are 'stripped' from us without our permission all the time AKA we forget.

As for the rest - as said:
There are examples of people who lost all their memories at once - amnesia. They didn't lose their personality - what made them who they were. They didn't became blank slates, vegetables.
Losing one's memories != dying. NOT even close.

Nor did Kurn.

[FKnight]

Edit_XYZ wrote:

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Kurn was suicidal. He wanted Worf to kill him; failing that, plan B was to kill himself by any means necessary.

Last time I checked, assisted suicide is illegal even when the victim suffers from an incurable, painful disease.
This is NOT a morally 'clean' thing to do. Quite the opposite.

Now - finding a way for your brother to live instead of snuffing him with a dagger is morally reprehensible?

I disagree. What Kurn wanted was Mauk-to'Vor, an honorable Klingon death to make up for the disgrace upon the House of Mogh and get into Stovokor, which his brother could give him -- all within the confines of Klingon customs, morals, and laws. Where Worf screwed up the first time was not taking a leave of absence to do it elsewhere either by ritual or by fighting an enemy as warriors. He should never have considered performing Mauk-to'Vor on Deep Space Nine.

Then, to compound the problem more, Worf ends up making his brother betray the Empire, leading to Kurn killing a Klingon warrior for doing his duty in service to the Empire. Yes, Kurn made his choices, but at least before this, Kurn could at least say he had some honor if only to himself. Yes, he was in disgrace before, but at least that wasn't his own doing. Now his "dishonor is complete."

What Worf does next is strip him of his identity and memories of being a proud Klingon warrior. Oh .. and Julian goes along with it without Kurn's permission.

As far as this episode goes - -- Fuck Worf.

"Kurn, Son of Mogh" died without honor and there won't be any songs about his heroic battle with Julian's engram scrambler.

--and that's why the ending wasn't awful. It made me angry at Worf.

[Edit_XYZ]

FKnight wrote:

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I disagree. What Kurn wanted was Mauk-to'Vor, an honorable Klingon death to make up for the disgrace upon the House of Mogh and get into Stovokor, which his brother could give him -- all within the confines of Klingon customs, morals, and laws. Where Worf screwed up the first time was not taking a leave of absence to do it elsewhere either by ritual or by fighting an enemy as warriors. He should never have considered performing Mauk-to'Vor on Deep Space Nine.

Then, to compound the problem more, Worf ends up making his brother betray the Empire, leading to Kurn killing a Klingon warrior for doing his duty in service to the Empire. Yes, Kurn made his choices, but at least before this, Kurn could at least say he had some honor if only to himself. Yes, he was in disgrace before, but at least that wasn't his own doing. Now his "dishonor is complete."

Honor this, honor that..
Heaven this, heaven that..
..So it's OK to kill your brother in cold blood.
What non-sense.

To make this acceptable to me - or to Worf - would be to stretch moral relativity past its breaking point, past the point it becomes grotesque.

Who knows - maybe the day after you do such a thing, FKnight, you can watch a stranger rape and kill your extended family - and do nothing to stop him, because it's "OK" to do so according to his morals.


In general, I find morals similar to the ones that require a brother to kill another for such 'pie in the sky' reasons objectively non-sense.
The only correspondent in earth cultures was human sacrifice due to religious reasons - which I also find morally indefensible.

What Worf does next is strip him of his identity and memories of being a proud Klingon warrior. Oh .. and Julian goes along with it without Kurn's permission.

As far as this episode goes - -- Fuck Worf.

"Kurn, Son of Mogh" died without honor and there won't be any songs about his heroic battle with Julian's engram scrambler.

--and that's why the ending wasn't awful. It made me angry at Worf.

"strip him of his identity"?
How may times must I repeat this until it sinks in?:
There are examples of people who lost all their memories at once - amnesia. They didn't lose their personality - what made them who they were. They didn't became blank slates, vegetables.
Losing one's memories != dying. NOT even close.

Kurn is quite alive - and his identity a well. One's identity/personality doesn not change merely because one has amnesia.

"Fuck Worf?"
Really?
That's 'good going, Worf'. You made the right choice.

And anyone who would tell you differently - well, let's just say I would not be comfortable at all to have him standing behind me, with a kitchen knife in his hands. Even if he's family. It wouldn't take much for him to snuff me out - just a bad mood on his part.

[DonIago]

While I personally find Kurn being alive but operating under a new identity preferable to him being dead, I can't say that I agree with some of the positions espoused above.

Regrettably, the person whose opinion is most pertinent to the situation isn't in a position to express an opinion on the situation.

[T'Girl]

Edit_XYZ wrote:

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And what about the rest (read - vast majority) of the world?

Actually Edit XYZ, in the much of the world assisted suicide is neither legal nor illegal, it's not on the books. And there are a few places, like Japan and Canada, where the law has it both ways, the law overlaps and conflicts.

The real question is does Bajor have assisted suicide, DS9 (regardless who administers it) is Bajorian territory.

There are examples of people who lost all their memories at once - amnesia. They didn't lose their personality - what made them who they were.

What make you who you are is your personal identity, your knowledge of self.

Nobody is saying that what used to be Kurn's mind was wiped completely clean, it retained the ability to walk and talk. What was removed was Kurn himself.

Again, the medical procedure was done without Kurn's permission.

Whoever it was that walked out of sickbay at the end of the episode, it wasn't Kurn.

[Edit_XYZ]

T'Girl wrote:

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Actually Edit XYZ, in the much of the world assisted suicide is neither legal nor illegal, it's not on the books. And there are a few places, like Japan and Canada, where the law has it both ways, the law overlaps and conflicts.

Actually, T'Girl, helping someone commit suicide IS a crime in the vast majority of the world.
Of course, "helping" someone for this is procuring the poison/the rope/etc for him or encouraging/etc him.

What Worf was supposed to do is plunge the knife into the heart of his brother.
THAT'S MURDER, T'Girl.
And whether the victim wants to be killed or not doesn't change this in the least.
You weren't under the impression that it's OK to kill someone who wants to die, yes?

Feel free to verify what I've just said - instead of coming up with straw-men meant to make your supported point look stronger.

What make you who you are is your personal identity, your knowledge of self.

Nobody is saying that what used to be Kurn's mind was wiped completely clean, it retained the ability to walk and talk. What was removed was Kurn himself.

What makes you you is your personality, your values.

When a person has amnesia, he doesn't lose himself - his personality, values, likes/dislikes, etc. Only his memories.
Feel free to check this out, too.

Kurn at the end - only the ability to walk and talk? Really?
T'Girl, you have no idea of the behavior of a being who can only walk and talk. That's obvious because Kurn's behavior at the end of the episode was the behavior of a complete individual - personality-wise.

Again, the medical procedure was done without Kurn's permission.

Did you know that, legally, doctors have permission to perform extremely dangerous procedures on a patient if these procedures are the only way to save the patient's life?

[R. Star]

If memory defines the person like some people seem to be suggesting, does that mean if I forgot what I had for breakfast I am somehow less of a person? I don't remember everyone in my 1st grade class, I've lost something of myself? That a person who can remember every trivial detail is somehow a greater person? Where's it stop?

Kurn's new persona knew how to speak, how to walk, so one assumes he has all his skills he had even if he doesn't remember them. I don't remember who taught me how to work a light switch, but I still can do it quite well after all. He was obedient and respect towards his "father." Kurn worshiped at authority's shrine his whole life. He'd follow orders without question and expected obedience from those below him. He expressed curiosity at this other Klingon who happened to be there, suggesting he hadn't lost his will and drive at all.

[T'Girl]

Edit_XYZ wrote:

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doctors have permission to perform extremely dangerous procedures ...

Oh, I never said it was a extremely dangerous procedure,

Is this an example of a strawman argument like you were referring to earlier?

THAT'S MURDER, T'Girl.

Murder is killing someone in a illegal fashion Edit_XYZ . What Kurn was requesting was very obviously not murder in the Klingon culture, and it's not clear if it was considered murder in Bajorian territory.

And whether the victim wants to be killed or not doesn't change this in the least.

Should "the victim" be in a place where assisted suicide is legal, but they don't wish to commit suicide, then their personal wishes very much enter into it.

You weren't under the impression that it's OK to kill someone who wants to die, yes?

I live in Washington State, yes it is "okay" to assist someone in committing suicide here.

Feel free to verify what I've just said ...

I looked up the facts prior to my posting, feel free to do so yourself on occasion.

only the ability to walk and talk? Really?

Oh, I never said "only" walk and talk. Is this yet another example of a strawman argument on your part?

You know, it okay to actually read my posts Edit_XYZ.

[Worf'sParmach]

Cthulurok wrote:

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One thing that's always bugged me and sorry if this has been answered elsewhere: wtf happened to Martok's bitch-slapped son from Way Of The Warrior? Unless I missed something, feels like he's never mentioned again, and fact that Worf was the one who dishonored him doesn't seem any impediment to him being accepted into M's house.

I've often wondered this myself. Technically, Martok doesn't know anything about Worf and Drex getting into it because that was changeling Martok. I always figured that was one of the reasons Sirella doesn't like Worf and didn't want him in their house.