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Old March 12 2013, 08:58 PM   #571
Robert Maxwell
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Killing one to ensure the saving of thousands, possibly millions? Yeah, I'd say that's fairly justified.
Agreed. Cora was a mortal threat to everyone in Storybrooke, and she was aided by Regina. Using Regina to beat Cora might not be very nice, but there are much worse things one could do in the name of saving innocent lives. Regina's suffering over this is not exactly harsh justice considering what she did to her realm and the people in Storybrooke. Let's not forget she cold-bloodedly killed people because she could. Snow only used Regina because she saw it as the best way to accomplish their overall goal, which was to beat Cora.

Now, had she used Henry as her pawn, you could make a much better case for Snow going to the "dark side," but Regina was a willing participant in all this, and Snow just outsmarted her.
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Old March 12 2013, 10:47 PM   #572
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

Everything on screen suggested that Cora was completely changed by regaining her heart. That is, she no longer posed an imminent threat. Basicaly Snow White killed Cora for shits and giggles.

Snow White may have pretended it was because she didn't think Cora was redeemable, and she was actually trying to trick Regina. But, the thing is, that Snow White is not actually stupid. Regina feeling love for her mother and the desire to be loved back, is someone who's not going back to the Evil Queen. But stomping on Regina's heart big time is very, very satisfying payback. But doing that meant creating an imminent threat in Regina. Which exposes the absurdity of justifying Snow White as responding to an imminent threat.

The idea of luring Regina away from Cora and other temptations with negotiations over visitation etc. seems much less unthinkable to me than it does to them. Henry seemed to turn out pretty well. Now, although the blood ties are supposed to conquer all, Emma and Snow White and Charming rather tend to stick him in the umbrella jug when he's inconvenient. Does he even go to school anymore? Brush his teeth? Go to bed at a reasonable hour?

PS On the general subject of redemption, it seems to me that time is a major factor. Regina did 28 years in Storybrooke as herself and was thereby changed. The ten years raising Henry was part of it, a positive part. Maybe she was more like the warden, but living with the prisoners, she still did time and paid for her past. The others were in some sort of timeless haze. (Or in Charming's case, in a coma.) Rumplestiltskin may or may not have been aware the whole time, but his experience was limping on the faces of the poor.
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Old March 13 2013, 03:51 AM   #573
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

Really enjoyed this episode. Cora's backstory was interesting, I didn't expect her relationship to Rumple, although it does make sense given everything we've seen of them. The modern day stuff was good too, with some really good stuff for Rumple and a pretty shocking twist at the end. As for Snow's actions, while killing Cora was definitely a mistake, I think her thought process was perfectly sound. Cora and Regina were a major threat, and at this point had been for years (decades?), so it makes sense that she would get tired of their crap. And I don't see her as being irredeemable at all, she did come to her senses and try to stop Regina at the very end.
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Old March 13 2013, 04:25 AM   #574
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

JD wrote: View Post
Really enjoyed this episode. Cora's backstory was interesting, I didn't expect her relationship to Rumple, although it does make sense given everything we've seen of them. The modern day stuff was good too, with some really good stuff for Rumple and a pretty shocking twist at the end. As for Snow's actions, while killing Cora was definitely a mistake, I think her thought process was perfectly sound. Cora and Regina were a major threat, and at this point had been for years (decades?), so it makes sense that she would get tired of their crap. And I don't see her as being irredeemable at all, she did come to her senses and try to stop Regina at the very end.
As far as Rumple and Cora, we knew he was her teacher, but, yea, I was surprised by the romance, I was fully prepared to believe Bae's mother and Belle were the extent of his romantic life and I certainly didn't expect him to be the only man Cora ever loved (Or that Cora ever loved anyone)

Snow, yea, a mistake in hindsight, but, Cora killed her mother and her beloved Mammy/Maid for giggles, Regina killed her father and they have both caused untold torture, horror and death to the Kingdom/Storybrooke and were on the brink of gaining more power to be an even bigger danger. At that point, pretty much anything goes. Gold is no sweetheart, but, he doesn't actively bring their kind of devastation, and he may be redeemable with Baelfire and now the family connection.
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Old March 13 2013, 06:08 AM   #575
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

stj wrote: View Post
Everything on screen suggested that Cora was completely changed by regaining her heart.
Not everything on screen.

We saw, in the very same episode, that she was an evil, vindictive bitch even before she ripped out her own heart. Something she only did for the pursuit of power despite being deeply in love with Rumpelstiltskin. What makes you think she wouldn't do the same thing soon after all of this?

As someone else said, what Snow White did wasn't a noble way to go about it, but it was hardly an act of irredeemable evil. It was espionage, pure and simple. She couldn't have gotten close enough to place the heart into Cora in time, so she manipulated another force of pure evil to do the job.

Keep in mind that Regina had most definitely turned back to the dark side at that point, too. She had her chance. Several times.

And, yes, it will be incredibly hypocritical for her to act outraged by what happened considering everything she's done, including manipulating others into performing acts just as vile but only for her personal pleasure/powergrabbing. Nevermind that the ploy Snow enlisted wasn't even close to what Cora herself tried to make her do with the exact same weapon.

Regina gets no sympathy, and Snow doesn't deserve to go to Hell for what she did. Guilt and regret over doing so? Sure, in spades, but only because she is a good person.

If roles were reversed and Regina did the same thing to Snow, she'd just laugh musically and vanish in a puff of smoke. So why should anyone feel bad for that evil twat?
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Old March 13 2013, 12:26 PM   #576
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
stj wrote: View Post
Everything on screen suggested that Cora was completely changed by regaining her heart.
Not everything on screen.

We saw, in the very same episode, that she was an evil, vindictive bitch even before she ripped out her own heart. Something she only did for the pursuit of power despite being deeply in love with Rumpelstiltskin. What makes you think she wouldn't do the same thing soon after all of this?
The fact that she didn't. All she had to do was finish Rumplestiltskin off right then and there. Instead she stopped to heart to heart with Regina. Cora could have made herself safe and enjoyed the Hallmark moment just a few minutes later. Incidentally, Snow White's burning the candle first, then dashing off to tell Regina to stop was completely senseless.

As someone else said, what Snow White did wasn't a noble way to go about it, but it was hardly an act of irredeemable evil. It was espionage, pure and simple. She couldn't have gotten close enough to place the heart into Cora in time, so she manipulated another force of pure evil to do the job.
Two points. First, replacing the heart accomplished the task of removing the threat from Cora. Which is asserted, but not shown, to be any greater than the threat from Rumplestiltskin. Second, the process creates an imminent threat from Regina, meaning everything said about imminent threats is completely irrelevant, just part of Snow White's rationalizations.

Keep in mind that Regina had most definitely turned back to the dark side at that point, too. She had her chance. Several times.
Right, when she killed Snow White in Granny's coffee shop and when she killed Charming at Gold's shop.

And, yes, it will be incredibly hypocritical for her to act outraged by what happened considering everything she's done, including manipulating others into performing acts just as vile but only for her personal pleasure/powergrabbing.
I've actually forgotten what Regina's done by way of manipulation, other than the genie/mirror to get rid of that creepy husband.

Nevermind that the ploy Snow enlisted wasn't even close to what Cora herself tried to make her do with the exact same weapon.
I'm losing track of the pronoun references here.

Regina gets no sympathy, and Snow doesn't deserve to go to Hell for what she did. Guilt and regret over doing so? Sure, in spades, but only because she is a good person.
I've never understood the notion that getting all emo was redemptive. It may be sincere, but sincerity can be purchased with a little self deception. It's a cheap virtue.

j
If roles were reversed and Regina did the same thing to Snow, she'd just laugh musically and vanish in a puff of smoke. So why should anyone feel bad for that evil twat?
Because there is an uncomfortable element of hating Regina more than Rumplestiltskin because she's a "twat."
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Old March 13 2013, 04:14 PM   #577
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Gold is no sweetheart, but, he doesn't actively bring their kind of devastation, and he may be redeemable with Baelfire and now the family connection.
Actually, I think it could be argued that Gold/Rumpel is the one who caused everything to happen as it did.

It was all of his choices, his cowardice, his manipulation, his teaching Cora and Regina magic that caused all the deaths, the curse - everything can be traced back to Rumpel being a coward son of a coward father who made a choice not to fight - which resulted in the loss of his family which would lead him to take up magic to try to get them back which would lead to deaths and destruction.

Without Rumpel, none of Once would have happened the way it did. He is the key to all of it. Which is probably ultimately why all the stories wind up back with his extended family and those he loves and interacts with.

If one considers the show to be ultimately his story rather than Henry's (as the kid has been pretty much sidelined this season), then it seems to me that the show finale would be that everyone else finally dies in one massive final battle and Rumpel gets one last shot at redemption: to go back and make a different decision than he originally made: to fight in the war and not be a coward. This would change the course of history for the Enchanted Forest, and Storybrooke would never have existed and everyone's lives would take the path they would have if Rumpel hadn't manipulated it all.
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Old March 13 2013, 04:41 PM   #578
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

I can't seem to recall there being any way for Snow to have seen Cora's alleged "change of heart" once Regina gave it back to her. There was no amount of time for Snow or anyone else for that matter to see how thorough this was, especially given what she'd done before heart or no heart. While this manipulation of Regina to defeat Cora is admittedly a dark turn, I'm not completely uncomfortable with it. I see it as somewhat of the antithesis to Picard's decision on how he could have used Hugh the Borg ... and in the end chose not to.
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Old March 13 2013, 04:51 PM   #579
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

js wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Gold is no sweetheart, but, he doesn't actively bring their kind of devastation, and he may be redeemable with Baelfire and now the family connection.
Actually, I think it could be argued that Gold/Rumpel is the one who caused everything to happen as it did.
Agreed, it's always been Gold/Rumple manipulating just about everything.

It was all of his choices, his cowardice, his manipulation, his teaching Cora and Regina magic that caused all the deaths, the curse - everything can be traced back to Rumpel being a coward son of a coward father who made a choice not to fight - which resulted in the loss of his family which would lead him to take up magic to try to get them back which would lead to deaths and destruction.
Yet Rumple was manipulated by the blind seer.


Without Rumpel, none of Once would have happened the way it did. He is the key to all of it. Which is probably ultimately why all the stories wind up back with his extended family and those he loves and interacts with.
And poor Emma feeling the need to protect Gold/Rumple, because he's family. That was a reluctant decision, wasn't it?

If one considers the show to be ultimately his story rather than Henry's (as the kid has been pretty much sidelined this season), then it seems to me that the show finale would be that everyone else finally dies in one massive final battle and Rumpel gets one last shot at redemption: to go back and make a different decision than he originally made: to fight in the war and not be a coward. This would change the course of history for the Enchanted Forest, and Storybrooke would never have existed and everyone's lives would take the path they would have if Rumpel hadn't manipulated it all.
A Mulligan then? Yeah, I like that idea.
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Old March 15 2013, 01:23 AM   #580
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

A new preview for this weekend's episode:

http://tv.yahoo.com/video/once-upon-...162416389.html
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Old March 15 2013, 12:14 PM   #581
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

If Cora is not redeemable then Regina has to be even LESS able to be redeemed because all of Regina's actions were done *WITH* her heart intact.

Cora as far as we know never killed anyone until she took out her own heart. This fairytale universe/logic has heart = emotion but also has heart = conscience.

So Cora did all of her actions without being able to feel or process anything as good/bad. Regina was able to and just ignored or decided she didn't care/was hurt too bad to care.

If you were to use a Buffy the Vampire Slayer type logic Cora without heart = vampire... Cora with heart = vampire with a soul.
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Old March 15 2013, 07:55 PM   #582
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

stj wrote: View Post
I've never understood the notion that getting all emo was redemptive. It may be sincere, but sincerity can be purchased with a little self deception. It's a cheap virtue.
Who (an interrogative pronoun) said it was?

I (Mister Fandango) said that Snow will feel guilty for doing it because she's (Snow White) an inherently good person, but that doesn't mean what she (still Snow White) did was wrong, nor feeling that guilt will be in any way redeeming. It just means she'll (that's right, still talking about Snow White) feel that it was wrong, unlike Regina if their (Snow's and Regina's) roles were reversed.

j
If roles were reversed and Regina did the same thing to Snow, she'd just laugh musically and vanish in a puff of smoke. So why should anyone feel bad for that evil twat?
Because there is an uncomfortable element of hating Regina more than Rumplestiltskin because she's a "twat."
When did I (back to Mister Fandango) ever mentioned Rumpelstiltskin aside from being a love interest of Cora's? (Helpful hint: I didn't.)

I (Mister Fandango again) realize you have some severe mental disability when it comes to following pronouns, as you (stj) clearly stated, but "she" and "her" in no way, shape, or form refer to Rumpelstiltskin at all. In fact, they (the pronouns ''she'' and ''her'') generally refer to the people mentioned in the same paragraph they're (those same pronouns) brought up. Not whatever random conversation you're (stj) having with yourself (still stj) in your (yep, still stj) head.
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Old March 15 2013, 11:29 PM   #583
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

Once Upon A Time': Jamie Dornan Previews The Return Of Sheriff Graham In 'Welcome To Storybrooke
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Old March 16 2013, 04:02 AM   #584
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
I (Mister Fandango) said that Snow will feel guilty for doing it because she's (Snow White) an inherently good person, but that doesn't mean what she (still Snow White) did was wrong, nor feeling that guilt will be in any way redeeming. It just means she'll (that's right, still talking about Snow White) feel that it was wrong, unlike Regina if their (Snow's and Regina's) roles were reversed.
The notion that an "inherently" good person will naturally feel guilt over doing nothing wrong is deranged. The clarification that you consider it a sign of goodness rather than the cause of goodness really doesn't make the difference you think. However, I will add that most of my post was directed to correcting what I thought was an erroneous position on your part, but this was a general comment on a common attitude.

When did I (back to Mister Fandango) ever mentioned Rumpelstiltskin aside from being a love interest of Cora's? (Helpful hint: I didn't.)

I (Mister Fandango again) realize you have some severe mental disability when it comes to following pronouns, as you (stj) clearly stated, but "she" and "her" in no way, shape, or form refer to Rumpelstiltskin at all. In fact, they (the pronouns ''she'' and ''her'') generally refer to the people mentioned in the same paragraph they're (those same pronouns) brought up. Not whatever random conversation you're (stj) having with yourself (still stj) in your (yep, still stj) head.
The part of my post this comments on was in response to your question, which is to say, a conversation with you. You asked, "So why should anyone feel bad for that evil twat?" You may have meant it as a rhetorical question, but you got an answer. My reasons are not required to take into account whether or not you compared the show's treatment of Regina to its treatment of Rumplestiltskin. I compare them. After all, they are my reasons, not yours. I don't know which ox of yours was gored, but bellowing about it so loudly is unseemly.
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Old March 16 2013, 09:26 AM   #585
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Re: Once Upon A Time - Season 2 Thread

^^ If good people never felt guilt over having done nothing wrong, at least half of the behavioral health industry would not exist.
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