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Old October 2 2012, 07:41 AM   #31
Tiberius
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Because he didn't change his uniform until after he boarded the Enterprise. Here's an image where he clearly has Captain's stripes.
I hadn't noticed that.

I don't think that there'd be a situation where Kirk voluntarily accepted a demotion to Captain, just to be promoted again for Trek 2. Perhaps he had a temporary reduction to Captain for the time he stayed in command of the Enterprise, then later, when the Enterprise was assigned as a training ship in trek 2 and Spock took command, Kirk went back to his old job and went back to Admiral. After that he never officially had command of a ship again until Trek 5, by which time he was captain again.
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Old October 2 2012, 09:48 PM   #32
The Wormhole
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

mtblillie wrote: View Post
I think TOS and TNG tried to touch on that with the fact that they were given flagship status, meaning they had much responsibility within the fleet, but that is just my guess.
There's no reason to believe the Enterprise was meant to be Starfleet's flagship in TOS. The others obviously were, but the original 1701 could very well have been any other ship.

And yes, I know many novels and even Trek XI have since retconned the original Enterprise as the flagship, but I really don't believe that was the intention in the 60s.
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Old October 3 2012, 05:18 AM   #33
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
mtblillie wrote: View Post
I think TOS and TNG tried to touch on that with the fact that they were given flagship status, meaning they had much responsibility within the fleet, but that is just my guess.
There's no reason to believe the Enterprise was meant to be Starfleet's flagship in TOS. The others obviously were, but the original 1701 could very well have been any other ship.

And yes, I know many novels and even Trek XI have since retconned the original Enterprise as the flagship, but I really don't believe that was the intention in the 60s.
Fair enough, I don't truly believe the original was meant to be flagship either (it seems that in TOS flagships had higher ranking commanders). The 1701 like many others were however given "starship" status, which at the time of production seemed to be a big deal, but again this is all guestimation on my part.

Timo wrote: View Post
It was clear that Kirk regretted his promotion, so I have a hard time seeing him doing it twice.
But how much say would Kirk have in the end? He's an employee, a resource for Starfleet to utilize. He may simply be told "we want Admiral Kirk, and have no use for Captain Kirk - wanna this fancy star or these discharge papers?", and that's that. Starfleet did seem to keep him in a display case of sorts, using him as a prolific and profilic instructor (Academy Commandant?) and never sending him anywhere; clearly, he wasn't being asked what he wanted to do.

Timo Saloniemi
He seemed to have the choice to demote.
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Old October 3 2012, 05:30 AM   #34
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

You have to wonder what the content of the conversation in Nogura's office was.
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Old October 3 2012, 02:02 PM   #35
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

I was always curious about the presence of "Commodore" Decker on the Constellation. Even though the grade of Commodore is no longer used in today's Navy (having been replaced by the absurdly-named Rear Admiral Lower Half), IIRC that title was usually given to a battlegroup commander (Fleet Captains were also referred to in a similar fashion). Commodore Leslie in "The Ultimate Computer" fit this tradition much more accurately, having been the flag commander of a battlegroup of 4 Connies against the Enterprise. Decker was just floating around out there on his own, in what could arguably be a much older not-so-ship-of-the-line Connie or Connie variant (don't want to engage in a debate on registry numbers, though). I wonder if he was like Adama in NuBSG - too tied to the service to retire and Starfleet didn't want to completely embarrass him, so they sent him out to pasture in a broken down older ship in a region where (they thought) he wouldn't get into much trouble.
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Old October 3 2012, 02:15 PM   #36
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
I was always curious about the presence of "Commodore" Decker on the Constellation. Even though the grade of Commodore is no longer used in today's Navy (having been replaced by the absurdly-named Rear Admiral Lower Half), IIRC that title was usually given to a battlegroup commander (Fleet Captains were also referred to in a similar fashion). Commodore Leslie in "The Ultimate Computer" fit this tradition much more accurately, having been the flag commander of a battlegroup of 4 Connies against the Enterprise. Decker was just floating around out there on his own, in what could arguably be a much older not-so-ship-of-the-line Connie or Connie variant (don't want to engage in a debate on registry numbers, though). I wonder if he was like Adama in NuBSG - too tied to the service to retire and Starfleet didn't want to completely embarrass him, so they sent him out to pasture in a broken down older ship in a region where (they thought) he wouldn't get into much trouble.
Very interesting. I like it.

(Note—For the record it's Commodore Bob Wesley in The Ultimate Computer [http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Robert_Wesley].)

For comparison and further contrast, there's also Commodore Stocker from The Deadly Years, in Kirk's words, "a chair-bound paper-pusher," who temporarily assumed command of the Enterprise, with bad results [http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Stocker].
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Old October 3 2012, 02:33 PM   #37
The Wormhole
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
I was always curious about the presence of "Commodore" Decker on the Constellation. Even though the grade of Commodore is no longer used in today's Navy (having been replaced by the absurdly-named Rear Admiral Lower Half), IIRC that title was usually given to a battlegroup commander (Fleet Captains were also referred to in a similar fashion). Commodore Leslie in "The Ultimate Computer" fit this tradition much more accurately, having been the flag commander of a battlegroup of 4 Connies against the Enterprise. Decker was just floating around out there on his own, in what could arguably be a much older not-so-ship-of-the-line Connie or Connie variant (don't want to engage in a debate on registry numbers, though). I wonder if he was like Adama in NuBSG - too tied to the service to retire and Starfleet didn't want to completely embarrass him, so they sent him out to pasture in a broken down older ship in a region where (they thought) he wouldn't get into much trouble.
Registry numbers aside, I see no reason to assume the Constellation was older or less advance than other Constitution ships. While your idea about Decker being someone Starfleet simply shoved aside to let him finish his career on his terms is interesting, I think ultimately what it all comes down to is that for dramatic purposes, the episode needed a starship commander that Kirk couldn't pull rank on, and so a Commodore was chosen. I suppose we could assume that Constellation was the flagship of a task force of smaller ships which were either destroyed by the Machine (and not mentioned) or left behind at a starbase while Constellation checked out something which turned out to be more serious than they orignially believed.
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Last edited by The Wormhole; October 4 2012 at 01:37 AM.
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Old October 3 2012, 02:40 PM   #38
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
I suppose we could assume that Constellation was the flagship of a task force of smaller ships which were either destroyed by the Machine (and not mentioned) or left behind at a starbase while Constellation checked out something which turned out to be more serious than they orignially believed.
Since neither option is even remotely suggested by anything in the episode, why would we assume this? Decker even refers to his command as the Constellation, as if all he were was a senior captain.
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Old October 3 2012, 05:12 PM   #39
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

Sure, the Constellation may have been Decker's only command. If his higher rank needs to be explained at all (which, IMHO, it does not), we could go with the idea that Decker is about to retire and just wants that one command before he goes, or OTOH, he could have been awaiting more ships being assigned to his battle group later on. Either is likely.

The Wormhole is exactly right, though, the reason Decker was a commodore in terms of production was so that he would unequivocally outrank Kirk.
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Old October 3 2012, 05:14 PM   #40
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
The Wormhole is exactly right, though, the reason Decker was a commodore in terms of production was so that he would unequivocally outrank Kirk.
Yeah, that part makes sense.
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Old October 3 2012, 05:40 PM   #41
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

Agreed.
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Old October 4 2012, 01:36 AM   #42
The Wormhole
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

Conscious Circuits wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
I suppose we could assume that Constellation was the flagship of a task force of smaller ships which were either destroyed by the Machine (and not mentioned) or left behind at a starbase while Constellation checked out something which turned out to be more serious than they orignially believed.
Since neither option is even remotely suggested by anything in the episode, why would we assume this? Decker even refers to his command as the Constellation, as if all he were was a senior captain.
If one felt a compelling need to try to rationalize why the Constellation were commanded by a Commodore, for puproses of attaining a No-Prize, those are wo possible explanations. I'm not trying to state them as facts, just tossing the ideas out there.
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Old October 4 2012, 03:29 AM   #43
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

My theory on Como. Decker and Constellation -- which I've stated before so forgive me if it sounds familiar -- is that four starships form a cruiser division (to use a WW2-era term, you may prefer squadron or group, whatever). Three are commanded by captains, but the fourth has a commodore who has a second hat as division commander. Since starships normally patrol alone, the commodore usually acts like a normal starship captain, aside for some extra paperwork as division commander. But if the division is assembled to act as a task force, as in "The Ultimate Computer," the commodore is in charge and his ship is the flagship.

Justin
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Old October 4 2012, 03:47 AM   #44
mtblillie
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

^ I like this idea
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Old October 4 2012, 05:12 AM   #45
CorporalCaptain
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Re: does a starfleet ship always have a CO with the rank of captain?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
My theory on Como. Decker and Constellation -- which I've stated before so forgive me if it sounds familiar -- is that four starships form a cruiser division (to use a WW2-era term, you may prefer squadron or group, whatever). Three are commanded by captains, but the fourth has a commodore who has a second hat as division commander. Since starships normally patrol alone, the commodore usually acts like a normal starship captain, aside for some extra paperwork as division commander. But if the division is assembled to act as a task force, as in "The Ultimate Computer," the commodore is in charge and his ship is the flagship.

Justin
Yeah, that's pretty good, too.

What doesn't quite fit is that the subject of the Enterprise belonging to Decker's squadron never comes up in the various arguments for who has command of the Enterprise, between Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and Decker. I suppose one could try to argue that the Enterprise is from a neighboring squadron, but that doesn't seem too likely, to me, especially with only a 12 ship fleet.

If Decker as squadron commander had been the intent, then it would only have taken a few minor tweaks of dialog to make it fit perfectly with the episode. While technically an argument against the idea, this last point also shows how not too far out at all your idea is. For that reason, it's a pretty good idea.

P.S. No, I hadn't read your idea before. Thanks!
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