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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 30 2012, 10:47 AM   #16
Tiberius
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

R. Star wrote: View Post
What does the Borg Queen add to the Collective again?

A personality that makes rather obvious emotional mistakes?
Causing all the drones around her to die if she does?

She seems more of a liability to the Borg than anything else. Before her the Borg were a scary Collective entity... after just another generic villain whose panties get in a bunch with the best of them.
She doesn't add anything to the Collective. She IS the Collective!

The Queen is the mind that is formed when all the drones are connected together, just in the same way that you are the mind formed when all of your brain cells are connected together.
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Old September 30 2012, 03:57 PM   #17
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

First Contact also has one of the best musical scores of the series. I probably listen to my First Contact CD more than any of my other Trek soundtracks.
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Old September 30 2012, 04:34 PM   #18
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
First Contact also has one of the best musical scores of the series. I probably listen to my First Contact CD more than any of my other Trek soundtracks.
It's great music. The main theme is a bit too similar to that for Air Force One though.
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Old October 1 2012, 12:19 AM   #19
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

Tiberius wrote: View Post
The Queen is the mind that is formed when all the drones are connected together, just in the same way that you are the mind formed when all of your brain cells are connected together.
And which of my brain cells is the "Queen Cell?"

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Old October 1 2012, 12:19 AM   #20
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

Tiberius wrote: View Post
MrJ wrote: View Post
But their entire plan...
And what do you think their plan was?
From what I can remember, it was to go back in time, stop first contact, and assimilate Earth in the 21st Century. Lots of people have been explaining why this doesn't make sense for years, but I'll say it again now. Ever since the first time we saw the Borg we learned that they were primarily interested in acquiring new technology. So in their first attempt to assimilate Earth and the Federation they sent one ship. It got blown up when the Enterprise crew found their Achilles heel. So years later, in First Contact, the Borg sent another lone ship to Earth, it got blown up. But it launched a Sphere that went back in time to a few days before first contact.
 
Now here are the things that don't make sense:
 
First, If the Borg have the ability to travel back in time why didn't they do that when they where still in the Delta Quadrant? Then travel unopposed to 21st century Earth and assimilate it.
 
Secondly, why would the Borg even be interested in assimilating 21st century Earth? They don't have any of the cool 24th Century technology that the Borg were originally interested in. Assuming they did assimilate Earth back in the 21st Century all they would have is one small insignificant planet thousands of light years from their base of power.
 
Thirdly, why would the Borg even think to stop First Contact? That indicated a degree of lateral thinking that the Borg were never shown to posses. They see someone with some piece of tech they want, so they take it. Nothing more complex than that. The Borg were remarkably single minded. That was part of their appeal. They were more of a force of nature than an evil race. They were kind of like the shark from Jaws, they roamed the Galaxy consuming what they wanted. Nothing more.
 
Fourthly, whatever happened to the adaptive Borg we saw on TNG? The ones who would adapt to any weapons frequency or tactic that is used against them? The first time the Enterprise crew fought the Borg it took an act of Q to save them. The second time Data jacked into their Unimatrix and put them into Sleep mode. Presumably they fixed their Network settings to prevent that from happing again. All the while Starfleet Officers were free to walk around Borg Ships as long as they didn't pose a threat. In First Contact the Borg could still adapt to weapons frequencies after they took a few hits. But they seemed to forget to adapt to any of Starfleet’s tactics. So even after showing how much of a threat that Starfleet Officers could be when they were poking around. The Borg still let Picard’s tactical teams get all the way to main Engineering, just because they kept their weapons down and didn't present them selves as an immediate threat.
 
I could go on, but like I said all of these points have been brought up by others over the years.




Tiberius wrote: View Post
...and adding the Borg Queen were terrible.
Why shouldn't the Borg have an embodiment of the Collective mind?

After all, if you have billions of drones connected together, why shouldn't they function as one mind? Your brain cells do it easily enough. And why shouldn't the Queen be an individual, emoting all over the place? Your brain cells don't have any individuality and can't emote, but when they all act as one, they form your mind, don't they? A mind with a sense of individuality and emotions. So why should it be so implausible that the Borg do exactly the same thing?

If the Borg Queen had only been an embodiment of the collective, kind of like Locutus, that wouldn’t have been so bad. Instead it was clear in First Contact, and Voyager later on, that she was the leader of the collective. That is a big difference. The problem with the Queen, was that the Borg were shown to not have a single leader. They were all of one mind. It was explicitly stated in Q Who what the advantages of having no single leader were. Troi said that a single leader can make mistakes, but the combined whole is less likely to. In First Contact and afterwards The Borg Queen was always making mistakes. The Borg were much scarier and a more effective villain before the Queen. Before, you couldn't out run, out fight, or even out think the Borg. After, it was pretty easy to out think or trick the Borg Queen.

The Borg Queen was just lazy writing. They could have kept what was unique to the Borg, not having a single leader, and had a really cool villain in the Borg collective. But they needed a bad guy for Picard to go Mano a Mano with (again), at the climax of the movie.
 

First Contact in general was just lazily written. I don't hate it though, I still say that it's easily the best TNG movie (not that that's saying much though). But Star Trek was once a show that took risks, it was creative, a lot of effort went into it's writing. But looking back, in hindsight, First Contact was were it became obvious that, with the exception of DS9, the Writers were beginning to give up.
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Old October 1 2012, 12:38 AM   #21
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

Mage wrote: View Post
It's a very good movie, but except for things like warpdrive, transporters and such, it lacks what it actually at the core of Star Trek; the moral dillema and exploration of humanity. Essentially, First Contact was a SciFi Action movie. And that's why it's populair.

Other movies have tried to do the moral dillema, with various results.
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Old October 1 2012, 04:25 AM   #22
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
The Queen is the mind that is formed when all the drones are connected together, just in the same way that you are the mind formed when all of your brain cells are connected together.
And which of my brain cells is the "Queen Cell?"

None of them. The Queen isn't a drone, just the same way your mind isn't a separate cell. The Queen is a disembodied consciousness that occasionally controls a physical body like a puppet. The mind of the queen is not confined to that body, it is spread throughout the Collective, just the same way that your mind is not confined to a single cell, but spread throughout your entire brain.
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Old October 1 2012, 04:41 AM   #23
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

MrJ wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
MrJ wrote: View Post
But their entire plan...
And what do you think their plan was?
From what I can remember, it was to go back in time, stop first contact, and assimilate Earth in the 21st Century. Lots of people have been explaining why this doesn't make sense for years, but I'll say it again now. Ever since the first time we saw the Borg we learned that they were primarily interested in acquiring new technology. So in their first attempt to assimilate Earth and the Federation they sent one ship. It got blown up when the Enterprise crew found their Achilles heel. So years later, in First Contact, the Borg sent another lone ship to Earth, it got blown up. But it launched a Sphere that went back in time to a few days before first contact.
 
Now here are the things that don't make sense:
 
First, If the Borg have the ability to travel back in time why didn't they do that when they where still in the Delta Quadrant? Then travel unopposed to 21st century Earth and assimilate it.
 
Secondly, why would the Borg even be interested in assimilating 21st century Earth? They don't have any of the cool 24th Century technology that the Borg were originally interested in. Assuming they did assimilate Earth back in the 21st Century all they would have is one small insignificant planet thousands of light years from their base of power.
 
Thirdly, why would the Borg even think to stop First Contact? That indicated a degree of lateral thinking that the Borg were never shown to posses. They see someone with some piece of tech they want, so they take it. Nothing more complex than that. The Borg were remarkably single minded. That was part of their appeal. They were more of a force of nature than an evil race. They were kind of like the shark from Jaws, they roamed the Galaxy consuming what they wanted. Nothing more.
 
Fourthly, whatever happened to the adaptive Borg we saw on TNG? The ones who would adapt to any weapons frequency or tactic that is used against them? The first time the Enterprise crew fought the Borg it took an act of Q to save them. The second time Data jacked into their Unimatrix and put them into Sleep mode. Presumably they fixed their Network settings to prevent that from happing again. All the while Starfleet Officers were free to walk around Borg Ships as long as they didn't pose a threat. In First Contact the Borg could still adapt to weapons frequencies after they took a few hits. But they seemed to forget to adapt to any of Starfleet’s tactics. So even after showing how much of a threat that Starfleet Officers could be when they were poking around. The Borg still let Picard’s tactical teams get all the way to main Engineering, just because they kept their weapons down and didn't present them selves as an immediate threat.
 
I could go on, but like I said all of these points have been brought up by others over the years.
There are some plausible explanations.

Why didn't they go back in time in the Delta quadrant? Perhaps because the transwarp network didn't stretch as far back then, and they couldn't easily get to earth. Even though assimilating Earth wasn't the primary mission objective, it was a secondary one.

Why would the Borg be interested in assimilating Earth? Well, the Borg Queen, unlike the drones, is an emotional being. And she's had two big embarrasments. First of all, she had the Enterprise snatched away from her in Q Who. Secondly, the defeat in BoBW. The Queen would want revenge. Besides, once she received the message the drones in Regeneration sent, it would undoubtedly contain the whole story of how they were trying to assimilate the Earth. Since that message did indeed reach the Collective and the primary mission objective was completed, the Queen chose not to mess with a sequence which was guaranteed to produce the desired outcome.

Why did they try to stop first contact? Well, the way I see it, that was only a secondary goal, not the primary goal.

The primary goal of the Borg in First Contact was to send the Collective in the 21st century information about the future.

Look at what happened. The Borg Sphere tried to destroy the Phoenix, but that was quickly stopped. What did the Borg do then to stop first contact? Pretty much nothing. Instead, the Borg concentrated on fixing the deflector to be the whatever so they could contact the Borg of the 21st century.

But why would they want to do that? To get reinforcements? Why would they need that? After all, humanity's in ruins, they won't be able to mount much of a resistance. And each Human you assimilate would add to your numbers making your job so much more easier. No, the Borg didn't need reinforcements. But to send the 21st century Borg information about the 24th century, that would be very valuable. And THAT is the primary mission - and that is what we see them doing. The queen concentrates on this to the exclusion of all else, and it is only once this objective is out of reach - when the deflector is destroyed that she says, "There's been a change of plan." And only then does she try to stop the Phoenix again.

So stopping the phoenix is a secondary goal. Assimilating Earth is just a secondary goal. It's sending information about the future to the drones of the past that the Queen was most interested in. And we even see that the drones recovered in Regeneration went back to doing precisely this! They once again attempted to complete the primary mission from FC - to send information about the future to the drones of the past!

As for your fourth point, let's not forget that the Borg were concentrating mostly on assimilating the Enterprise, not fighting crewmembers. And they did assimilate some. But they were concentrating on their primary mission.

Tiberius wrote: View Post
...and adding the Borg Queen were terrible.
Why shouldn't the Borg have an embodiment of the Collective mind?

After all, if you have billions of drones connected together, why shouldn't they function as one mind? Your brain cells do it easily enough. And why shouldn't the Queen be an individual, emoting all over the place? Your brain cells don't have any individuality and can't emote, but when they all act as one, they form your mind, don't they? A mind with a sense of individuality and emotions. So why should it be so implausible that the Borg do exactly the same thing?

If the Borg Queen had only been an embodiment of the collective, kind of like Locutus, that wouldn’t have been so bad. Instead it was clear in First Contact, and Voyager later on, that she was the leader of the collective. That is a big difference. The problem with the Queen, was that the Borg were shown to not have a single leader. They were all of one mind. It was explicitly stated in Q Who what the advantages of having no single leader were. Troi said that a single leader can make mistakes, but the combined whole is less likely to. In First Contact and afterwards The Borg Queen was always making mistakes. The Borg were much scarier and a more effective villain before the Queen. Before, you couldn't out run, out fight, or even out think the Borg. After, it was pretty easy to out think or trick the Borg Queen.

The Borg Queen was just lazy writing. They could have kept what was unique to the Borg, not having a single leader, and had a really cool villain in the Borg collective. But they needed a bad guy for Picard to go Mano a Mano with (again), at the climax of the movie.
lol, you are proving my point! You yourself admit that I am right when you claim, "The problem with the Queen, was that the Borg were shown to not have a single leader. They were all of one mind."

That's exactly right, they are one mind - and that Mind is the Queen. The queen is no more a leader of the Borg than your mind is the leader of your brain cells.
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Old October 1 2012, 09:03 PM   #24
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

beamMe wrote: View Post
It's great music. The main theme is a bit too similar to that for Air Force One though.
I don't hear Air Force One in the score at all. Either way, AFO came a year later. So if anything that score sounded like First Contact. But I don't think it does.
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Old October 1 2012, 11:47 PM   #25
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

First Contact is the best Trek movie because it puts the prophecy of Trek into the mouths of Picard, Geordi, Riker and Troi without feeling preachy while the post WWIII and Borg background created a good contrast to this self-reflexive "we will tell Cochrane what humankind should aspire to do, what Star Trek basically is" theme.
It is not easy to get such contrasts right, it can easily feel forced and inharmonious but in the case of FC it somehow worked.
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Old October 2 2012, 02:36 PM   #26
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

Mr. Spook wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
It's great music. The main theme is a bit too similar to that for Air Force One though.
I don't hear Air Force One in the score at all. Either way, AFO came a year later. So if anything that score sounded like First Contact. But I don't think it does.
You know.. there's something to that now that it's mentioned.
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Old October 2 2012, 04:50 PM   #27
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

Mr. Spook wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
It's great music. The main theme is a bit too similar to that for Air Force One though.
I don't hear Air Force One in the score at all. Either way, AFO came a year later. So if anything that score sounded like First Contact. But I don't think it does.
Okay, the AFO-theme is a bit too similar to the FC-theme.
And, they are only half a year apart.

The music isn't the same, but the style, the ... I can't explain it. To me the both themes feel (I know, subjective) very similar.
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Old October 2 2012, 05:51 PM   #28
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

To me the Borg were great villains because they were nameless, leader-less and couldnt be argued or reasoned with; introducing a queen lowered them to traditional enemy status. I enjoyed FC but the introduction of the queen bothered me, as well as all those angry-faced Borg.
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Old October 2 2012, 08:27 PM   #29
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I like FIRST CONTACT. It's easily the very best of the TNG-era movies.
I have to disagree. Both GEN and FC were equally sloppy; however, I think the theme in GEN was more poignant and fleshed-out than FC's. I may have pretty much the same theme as TUC, but it did a better job of portraying it and used some key visual queues to bring it home.

Neither film was directed well, but GEN had a few cinematically powerful shots that were absent from FC.

Also, after INS, GEN was probably the most "TNG" of the four films. (If such a concept exists.) I know most people like to use that a knock against it, but one problem I've always had with FC is the story is almost completely independent of the series. Omit the characters, and it just becomes a mediocre, generic sci-fi action flick. The only thing that ties it to the series is the Picard revenge angle, but that was woven into the story for its own sake. Neither the plot nor the theme are heavily dependent on it.

Plus, GEN had The Shat. He makes everything better.

I would agree, though, that FC's score was significantly more impressive.

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote: View Post
Yeah. All that "warp drive" nonsense. How unbelievable is that?
Please explain what the incredulity of science fiction technology has to do with contrivance.

She doesn't add anything to the Collective. She IS the Collective!
the Borg Queen, unlike the drones, is an emotional being

Why shouldn't the Borg have an embodiment of the Collective mind?

After all, if you have billions of drones connected together, why shouldn't they function as one mind? Your brain cells do it easily enough. And why shouldn't the Queen be an individual, emoting all over the place? Your brain cells don't have any individuality and can't emote, but when they all act as one, they form your mind, don't they? A mind with a sense of individuality and emotions. So why should it be so implausible that the Borg do exactly the same thing?

The Queen is the mind that is formed when all the drones are connected together, just in the same way that you are the mind formed when all of your brain cells are connected together.
By conceding The Queen adds emotion, you're implying she exists at a higher level of consciousness than the drones. She is independent of the drones and thus an individual. This implies a defined hierarchy.

The Borg were originally a critique on American Imperialism. The creators borrowed from Durkheim's "collective consciousness" theory as a warning about the new technologies (fast food, computers, shopping malls, cars, etc.) America brought to the corners of the world. If societies that were not ready for them were forced to assimilate too quickly, the ripple effect would inevitably bring about complete human conformity because the technology and proletariat would simply be too dominant for any stragglers to challenge.

When the herd is absolute, it had no need for a shepherd. Free of its binds, it is allowed to roam completely out of control which is totally self-destructive.

Both Locutus and The Queen were those very shepherds and completely negate the whole concept.
None of them. The Queen isn't a drone, just the same way your mind isn't a separate cell. The Queen is a disembodied consciousness that occasionally controls a physical body like a puppet. The mind of the queen is not confined to that body, it is spread throughout the Collective, just the same way that your mind is not confined to a single cell, but spread throughout your entire brain.
Once again you completely miss the point. The only consciousness they have is the unifying force, created solely out of a Darwinian need (if you will), that binds them together. There are no "strings" the puppets just do. Their actions are solely dictated by what is needed to maintain the status quo and destroy anything that gets in their way. To say there's a force pulling this strings implies a higher level of self-awareness that simply did not exists in the original Borg.

Why would the Borg be interested in assimilating Earth? Well, . And she's had two big embarrasments. First of all, she had the Enterprise snatched away from her in Q Who. Secondly, the defeat in BoBW. The Queen would want revenge. Besides, once she received the message the drones in Regeneration sent, it would undoubtedly contain the whole story of how they were trying to assimilate the Earth. Since that message did indeed reach the Collective and the primary mission objective was completed, the Queen chose not to mess with a sequence which was guaranteed to produce the desired outcome.
This doesn't make any sense unless The Queen suddenly became Omnipotent.

Why did they try to stop first contact? Well, the way I see it, that was only a secondary goal, not the primary goal.

The primary goal of the Borg in First Contact was to send the Collective in the 21st century information about the future.
If their primary goal was to warn themselves, they could have gone back in time at anytime and any place to any other time and any other place.

More importantly, if First Contact wasn't their primary goal, then why did they choose that exact date?

Look at what happened. The Borg Sphere tried to destroy the Phoenix, but that was quickly stopped. What did the Borg do then to stop first contact? Pretty much nothing. Instead, the Borg concentrated on fixing the deflector to be the whatever so they could contact the Borg of the 21st century.
It was totally reactionary.

But why would they want to do that? To get reinforcements? Why would they need that? After all, humanity's in ruins, they won't be able to mount much of a resistance. And each Human you assimilate would add to your numbers making your job so much more easier. No, the Borg didn't need reinforcements. But to send the 21st century Borg information about the 24th century, that would be very valuable. And THAT is the primary mission - and that is what we see them doing. The queen concentrates on this to the exclusion of all else, and it is only once this objective is out of reach - when the deflector is destroyed that she says, "There's been a change of plan." And only then does she try to stop the Phoenix again.

So stopping the phoenix is a secondary goal. Assimilating Earth is just a secondary goal. It's sending information about the future to the drones of the past that the Queen was most interested in. And we even see that the drones recovered in Regeneration went back to doing precisely this! They once again attempted to complete the primary mission from FC - to send information about the future to the drones of the past!
This is all total bunk.

First of all, the Borg had no idea a ship was going to follow them to the past.

Secondly, the whole plan was the Star Trek equivalent to The Great Escape. When an escapee realizes he's not going to make it he resorts to the next best thing: sabotage. Both scenarios, as I explained above, were completely reactionary.

Non the less, the plot you described (as was the plot in the film) creates a total Grandfather paradox. "Temporal Wakes" are just lazy cop-outs of epic proportions.

In essence, yes, it was really lazy writing.

To take it further, why pick that day of all days. I've already debunked your "they wanted to warn their past-selves" idea. And stopping First Contact is completely arbitrary and pointless.

Assimilation, as suggested, wasn't really the point either because there was really no technological or manpower benefit (especially at the cost of time travel) to go back to that day. The only thing that remains is to get humans out of the way. If that's the case, why not just go back 5 billion years and do it right?

In the end, it was just about getting the kids to go. They took a plot idea and silly villain idea and bent every rule and took every shortcut they could to make it work as best they could.

That is not good film making which is the primary scope of this thread.
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Old October 3 2012, 01:59 AM   #30
Tiberius
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Re: is star trek first contact best star trek movie

CorporealClegg wrote: View Post
Ti-BOO!-rius wrote: View Post
Yeah. All that "warp drive" nonsense. How unbelievable is that?
Please explain what the incredulity of science fiction technology has to do with contrivance.
Maybe if you'd go into more detail about "contravances" there are in FC...

What a witty retort. You sure proved me wrong, didn't you?

By conceding The Queen adds emotion, you're implying she exists at a higher level of consciousness than the drones. She is independent of the drones and thus an individual. This implies a defined hierarchy.
In just the same way that your entire mind has a higher consciousness than a single brain cell. Seriously, what's your problem with this?

The Borg were originally a critique on American Imperialism. The creators borrowed from Durkheim's "collective consciousness" theory as a warning about the new technologies (fast food, computers, shopping malls, cars, etc.) America brought to the corners of the world. If societies that were not ready for them were forced to assimilate too quickly, the ripple effect would inevitably bring about complete human conformity because the technology and proletariat would simply be too dominant for any stragglers to challenge.

When the herd is absolute, it had no need for a shepherd. Free of its binds, it is allowed to roam completely out of control which is totally self-destructive.

Both Locutus and The Queen were those very shepherds and completely negate the whole concept.
So it's wrong if the idea behind it ever changes?

Once again you completely miss the point. The only consciousness they have is the unifying force, created solely out of a Darwinian need (if you will), that binds them together. There are no "strings" the puppets just do. Their actions are solely dictated by what is needed to maintain the status quo and destroy anything that gets in their way. To say there's a force pulling this strings implies a higher level of self-awareness that simply did not exists in the original Borg.
And once again you miss my point.

You admit they have a single consciousness. What is a single consciousness if not a single mind?

This doesn't make any sense unless The Queen suddenly became Omnipotent.
Care to explain this?

If their primary goal was to warn themselves, they could have gone back in time at anytime and any place to any other time and any other place.
True. But, the message that the drones in "Regeneration" sent would have included the "We went to Earth" bit. So the Queen had to do the same thing to avoid a paradox.

More importantly, if First Contact wasn't their primary goal, then why did they choose that exact date?
In order to achieve their secondary objective...

Look at what happened. The Borg Sphere tried to destroy the Phoenix, but that was quickly stopped. What did the Borg do then to stop first contact? Pretty much nothing. Instead, the Borg concentrated on fixing the deflector to be the whatever so they could contact the Borg of the 21st century.
It was totally reactionary.
What?

You're telling me that the Borg went back in time to stop first contact and then spent most of the movie fiddling with the telephone?

If they were primarily interested in stopping first contact, why did they do nothing to stop it until the deflector was destroyed? They were concentrating on the deflector rather than the Phoenix - that tells me that the deflector was more important!

This is all total bunk.

First of all, the Borg had no idea a ship was going to follow them to the past.
Why is it required that they know?

And they would have known, actually. The drones found in Regeneration knew the Enterprise would follow the sphere back, since they had experienced it. So that information could very well have been included in the message that they sent.

Secondly, the whole plan was the Star Trek equivalent to The Great Escape. When an escapee realizes he's not going to make it he resorts to the next best thing: sabotage. Both scenarios, as I explained above, were completely reactionary.
So once the Sphere was destroyed, the Borg knew they weren't going to be able to stop first contact? How so? They have quite a few drones and a fully functioning transporter. Beam a dozen drones to the missile complex and start assimilating people. They can even assimilate the Phoenix. That would stop it. But they don't. Why?

Non the less, the plot you described (as was the plot in the film) creates a total Grandfather paradox. "Temporal Wakes" are just lazy cop-outs of epic proportions.

In essence, yes, it was really lazy writing.
How is it a lazy cop out?

To take it further, why pick that day of all days. I've already debunked your "they wanted to warn their past-selves" idea. And stopping First Contact is completely arbitrary and pointless.
I;ve already explained that.

Assimilation, as suggested, wasn't really the point either because there was really no technological or manpower benefit (especially at the cost of time travel) to go back to that day. The only thing that remains is to get humans out of the way. If that's the case, why not just go back 5 billion years and do it right?
And I;ve already explained that.

In the end, it was just about getting the kids to go. They took a plot idea and silly villain idea and bent every rule and took every shortcut they could to make it work as best they could.
Well durr, it is a business after all.

That is not good film making which is the primary scope of this thread.
It's good business, and the film making is not as bad as you make it out to be.
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