7X05 The Angels Take Manhattan (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)

[Starkers]

Admiral2 wrote:

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There's "something of the night" in every Doctor. Four had his deadly serious moments, too, so did Three and One was officious and dour for most of his run.

I'm only reacting like this because it feels to me like people have too easily forgotten that there were eight other Doctors before the crop we're discussing, and the newbies are all light-years behind a couple of the old guard in terms of sheer awesomeness. In my eyes, that makes the debate about whether Nine, Ten or Eleven is better or more mature or what have you pointless. None of them will ever match up to Four. None of them will ever match up to Three.

(deep breath) Rant over. Back to the sub-topic.

There's been a Regression of maturity. Nine was most mature, but with a frat boy streak. Ten's maturity came with screeching and whining. And Eleven...sorry...is a man-child with ADHD. It's just blatant.

I agree with you re the classic Doctors, hell we've yet to see a modern Doctor treat their companion quite as viciously as Seven treated Ace in Fenric, and yes it was to save her life but still...

I'd disagree about Smith though, personally I just see him as a cantankerous old man trapped in a young man's body, yeah he's been a bit ADHD of late, but I thought he was quite restrained in Manhattan, and I get the impression that his Doctor is going to calm down a little when Clara shows up.

Nine was great, and I've yet to see either Smith or Tennant come close to the sheer hate/terror he showed in Dalek, but by the same token, I somehow doubt Eccleston would have been able to play the meeting with Sarah Jane with anywhere near the emotion/exuberance of Tennant.

[DAYoung]

Good: snappy one-liners, some unusually good acting from Gillan, moving use of young Amelia, evil cherubs, nice use of Doctor's awkward preening.

Bad: poor plotting, clumsy direction at key moments (e.g. Rory and tombstone), ham-fisted characterisation in parts (e.g. Doctor as one-dimensional needy loner).

Ugly: Statue of Liberty (i.e. implausible and very badly executed), very rushed (a Moffat trademark).

Nothing in this to rival Ten and Rose or Donna (for very different reasons, obviously). And not a hint of the authoritative madness of Four.

This is all a more dispassionate assessment. When I suspend my disbelief, I still enjoy it. Even when mediocre, Doctor Who combines the silly and somber, irreverent and dignified, in interesting ways.

[The Mirrorball Man]

DAYoung wrote:

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When I suspend my disbelief, I still enjoy it. Even when mediocre, Doctor Who combines the silly and somber, irreverent and dignified, in interesting ways.

Ha! That deserves to be quoted.

[Mr Awe]

Alidar Jarok wrote:

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Unless you are wrong, in which case New York has blown up. That's the point you're missing. You could be right, however, the Doctor, who is usually pretty good about figuring these things out, thinks you are wrong.

The Doctor could've blown up the universe by saving himself using that logic!

My point is more that the authors can easily decide to retrieve Amy and Rory if they want to. There's a very simple out.

Mr Awe

[Dac]

FWIW, that pic of young Amy does nothing for me. Nonsensical mawkish crap only warrants one feeling from me, and it isn't sadness. I was hoping the connection with the 11th hour would be more significant, what with Rory's Nurse badge stating he became one in 1991, no modern cars are around yet they have laptops and touchscreen phones I was expecting a big twist answer/reveal there. But there wasn't. The only reason its there is because Moffat said it felt right, rather than being a valid dramatic point. It's just there to push a button, not to advance/close a plot.

It makes me wonder if there is something wrong with me. I love Deep Space Nine. I love Battlestar. I love TNG. I love Breaking Bad. Why does Doctor Who always piss me off when everyone is saying how much I should love it?

[The Mirrorball Man]

Dac wrote:

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It makes me wonder if there is something wrong with me. I love Deep Space Nine. I love Battlestar. I love TNG. I love Breaking Bad. Why does Doctor Who always piss me off when everyone is saying how much I should love it?

Different people like different things?

[MistbornFreak]

Something that gets is that people complain about the giant Liberty Angel or whatever it's called, but not about one of the Angels in Blink managing to cross a busy road next to a police office in a city and hide outside the window in broad daylight, just because Sally blinked? After that, and the fact that Angels can move about so easily without being seen by birds/insects/other random creatures, the giant Liberty Angel isn't such a stretch for me anymore. Also, I'm not sure that it was the actual Statue of Liberty, seeing as the actual thing most certainly isn't made of stone, it's probably just a mock thing made by the Angels, although that was never mentioned in the episode. Really should've been a two parter.

Still, despite the episode's flaws, it was able to suspend my disbelief, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. :3

[RoJoHen]

Basically, the "rules" of the Weeping Angels change from episode to episode. Sometimes they displace you in time. Other times they just kill you. According to River in this latest episode, the Angels "took over" the city's statues.

[The Wormhole]

Dac wrote:

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what with Rory's Nurse badge stating he became one in 1991,

Moffat himself has stated that he never bothered to look at Rory's badge since it had no plot relevance, and thus the date it gave went completely overlooked.

[Starkers]

The Mirrorball Man wrote:

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Different people like different things?

Exactly, it really would be a dull world otherwise. I love DS9, and really like TNG but I could write reams on my issues with Nu BSG I like firefly but I don't really get the 'best show evah' malarky, and there are plenty of accliamed shows I've given up on and crappy shows I've stuck with cos I had a soft spot for them.

I'd never tell someone they should love Who*, I just think anyone who consistently doesn't like it at all, who finds few or no redeeming features about it should, in the words of Why Don't You (and 5 completely pointless points to the first person to identify the WDY/Who connection) "Turn off the tv and go do something more interesting instead."

But no, Dac, I don't think there's anything wrong with you!

* The only show I proselytize about is Blakes 7. You will love Blakes 7, or else...

[Alidar Jarok]

Mr Awe wrote:

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The Doctor could've blown up the universe by saving himself using that logic!

Which brings me back to my other point that the Doctor has a certain sense of what a fixed point is. With his own death, he didn't quite realize it at first, but he figured it out (and he figured out that it did not merely involve using the tesselect, but that it required to fake his own death and maintain a lower profile). Here, he's figured out that the fixed point involves Rory and Amy growing old and dying.

Actually, it might be more helpful to think of this as crossing your own time stream rather than changing a fixed point.

My point is more that the authors can easily decide to retrieve Amy and Rory if they want to. There's a very simple out.

If the argument is simply that the writers can cop out, I'm not disagreeing with you. If the argument is that the more logical result of the episode is that this isn't permanent, that's where the disagreement arises. Certainly, if the writers want to bring them back, they are welcome to use any reason they choose (including this one).

[Samurai8472]

http://www.randomhouse.co.uk/edition.../9781448141333







I'm going to rip out the last page

[Mr Light]

I really loved the bit where the Doctor always rips out the final page of a book because he doesn't want the story to end. That was a beautiful notion, and so emblematic of the series' longevity.

[Wereghost]

Samurai8472 wrote:

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http://www.randomhouse.co.uk/edition.../9781448141333







I'm going to rip out the last page

Warning: It's not actually the same story as the one referenced in TATM.

[Cutter John]

Someone so needs to remove the DW logo and Photoshop a spine and back cover so I can paste it onto an old paperback.