7X05 The Angels Take Manhattan (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!)

[teacake]

A ship? UP in the SKY?

[PorthosShadow]

teacake wrote:

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A ship? UP in the SKY?

The Cloverfield monster, maybe?

[TyberiusDeAngelo]

Can someone please help me better understand this: At the end of the episode when The Doctor goes back to see little Amelia waiting in the yard, doest that mean she had always known The Doctor was indeed coming back and she was just playing upset he left for all those years? I was confused about that bit.

[The Wormhole]

Australis wrote:

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Hey anytone have any thoughts about this, very first shot from Angels:



Is that what I think it is?

Based on your comments in the other thread, you believe the two towers in this shot are the World Trade Centre. How we know it's not.

-The Twin Towers were practically identical, though one was shorter. Those two buildings are very different. One looks gray, the other blue. The left one has a completely different roof than the right, the Twin Towers had identical roofs.

-This shot would have been taken when the production crew were in New York earlier this year, which would make it kind of impossible to get any kind of image of the WTC.

EDIT: Just checked in from the other thread. Apparentally, that's the new Freedom Tower under costruction where the WTC was.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Lonemagpie wrote:

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Except that all they and we know is there's a stone with their names on it. There's zero proof that they're under it. And even if there was, that just means they'd need to hold the funeral there.

It's no more a definite finality than the Doctor's gravestone in Revelation Of The Daleks was.

To be fair, it's been shown since the beginning of the new series (and it was hinted before that) that the Doctor has some kind of "time sense" that makes him perceive paradoxes, time shifts and other phenomenons. That's good enough for me: he saw the names on the stone, and he recognized that as a fixed point in time, and Bob's your uncle.

[JRoss]

Great until the end of the end. The angel popping up at the last seemed too contrived and Amy's end was a lot like Sally Sparrow's friend's end.

[Samurai8472]

P0sitr0nic wrote:

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Because he is already dead of old age in that timeline. They cant change that now. The Gravestone places him dead THERE at 86 years of age. The Doctor cant alter it, it would create another paradox. How would they know to go get him without the gravestone, but there would be no grave if they went and got him.

On top of the paradox already in play with them jumping, the new one would blow a hole in space time. Maybe the size of Belgium.

We're talking about a show where the doctor HAD to die but he used a robot in his place to make it looked like he died.


The Doctor could pick up Rory and replace him with a robot. The Robot would function till it reaches 86 years old.

The tesselecta crew would then leave now that their job is done.

[Trubinator]

Geronimo. The episode served as an excellent goodbye for Amy and was just generally done very well! Couldn't have asked for much more really.

[Starkers]

Psion wrote:

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So that's the end of the Amelia Pond era. There was a distinctly fairy-tale quality to most of the episodes, and now I'm wondering how much of what we saw was stuff that actually happened and how much was the story the Doctor told little Amelia when he went back. Did the Doctor really travel with Amy and Rory, or was it all just a tale told to a little girl?

Throughout the fifth season, I wondered if the show was actually taking place in Amy's imagination. There was the timing glitch in "Victory of the Daleks" where Bracewell's plans for an oxygen/gravity bubble and blaster rays were implemented on Spitfires and launched into space in a mere twenty-two minutes. The story-book improbable Starwhale and its kindness towards children. That staple of children's nightmares, vampires. A history lesson in a visit with a great artist and the sad tragedy of a misunderstood monster. And through it all, that crack in time and the goofiness of the "Big Bang".

I will be very impressed if Moffat planned all this from "The Eleventh Hour". If he always intended the whole thing to loop back on that one scene with Amelia waiting and the subterfuge that led us all to believe it was just a dream.

If this is the case, who knows how much of what we've seen so far of Doctor Eleven has been real? Maybe he never came back for Amy and Rory twelve years later. Maybe he never married River Song.

The eleventh Doctor might be a different person when he's not telling tales about himself.

It's just idle speculation. I'm probably wrong. But if the Doctor seems more serious in the rest of the season; if he seems somehow more constrained by reality; if he never again mentions the Ponds or his marriage to River Song, the explanation just might have something to do with a Timelord filling a little girl's head with whimsical stories like a crazy old grandfather.

Have to say I thought there was something bigger going on in S5 as well, as well as the Spitfire stuff, there was also the speed with which a handful of people set up a village wide CCTV system in the first Silurian episode, and I did wonder if none of it was real...actually I think it was just somewhat shoddy writing/production in both cases.

[Trubinator]

Judge Death wrote:

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Have to say I thought there was something bigger going on in S5 as well, as well as the Spitfire stuff, there was also the speed with which a handful of people set up a village wide CCTV system in the first Silurian episode, and I did wonder if none of it was real...actually I think it was just somewhat shoddy writing/production in both cases.

That would be really interesting if it were true ... and also cheap and unfulfilling. If seasons 5, 6 and 7 were all essentially stories told to Amelia, everything that happened would be meaningless and therefore unsatisfying. I don't think that's what Moffat intended and I certainly don't think the BBC would want that kind of story told to its audience.

[Orac Zen]

Kai "the spy" wrote:

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Say what you want about RTD, but at least he never contradicted himself.

Really? Never?

Starkers wrote:

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Or even more appropriately, the whole Rose/alt universe saga. The universes are closed we can never, EVER see each other again...oops yes we can, or the whole Donna "If she remembers her head will explode" malarkey.

I'm not sure why this thread briefly turned into "RTD / Moffat sucks and anyone who disagrees is an idiot", but so long as we're here it's pretty clear neither is flawless.

And as much as I dislike the notion of the Ponds being gone forever...if Moffat pulls the sort of pathetic RTD-style "oh, we can undo this supposedly permanent thing" stunt mentioned above, I'll be beyond disgusted. I don't like it, but now it's done I'd rather it sticks.

[Starkers]

Orac Zen wrote:

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Really? Never?

I'm not sure why this thread briefly turned into "RTD / Moffat sucks and anyone who disagrees is an idiot", but so long as we're here it's pretty clear neither is flawless.

And as much as I dislike the notion of the Ponds being gone forever...if Moffat pulls the sort of pathetic RTD-style "oh, we can undo this supposedly permanent thing" stunt mentioned above, I'll be beyond disgusted. I don't like it, but now it's done I'd rather it sticks.

Hope you don't mind me highlighting that bit, but truer words were rarely spoken!!

[Shazam!]

Psion wrote:

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Maybe he never married River Song.

That would be too good to be true.

[Lonemagpie]

Psion wrote:

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I will be very impressed if Moffat planned all this from "The Eleventh Hour". If he always intended the whole thing to loop back on that one scene with Amelia waiting and the subterfuge that led us all to believe it was just a dream.

He admitted in interviews over the last couple of weeks that he changed the end very late on... So I'd guess not

[Alidar Jarok]

Anyway, all it takes is a single reference to these seasons later to completely debunk the idea that it was all a dream (not that it really makes sense in the first place - the events in this episode have to be real for the Doctor to get the idea to tell a story in the first place and this episode references those other events). The only point of that scene is that the Doctor still gets to spend time with Amy, only just the time where Amy grew up thinking about the raggedy man.