Supernatural 8x1 "We Need to Talk About Kevin" spoiler discussion

[Dorian Thompson]

Season 8 is here, good people. Dorian's job responsibilities have changed. I'll be working late night on Wednesdays for the foreseeable future since my boss, the emperor, wouldn't think of fulfilling his own responsibilities. You've bade me create the threads early, so here we are.

I here it's good. I'll have to watch online later on and leave the live discussion to you good people. The clip I saw looks interesting enough.

[Mr. Adventure]

We'll have to see how Sam and Dean do fending off the supernatural evil that is the presidential debates.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Would it be wishful thinking that Tilda Swinton or John C. Reiley guest starred on this episode? Haha

[RJDiogenes]

I'm looking forward to it. I hope we get to see what Purgatory is like.

[auntiehill]

^Yes, that's what I'm hoping for. I want to know what went down in Purgatory, if Cas is back to being "Cas," and how the new plot for the season is going to set out.

*sigh* I'll still miss Bobby, though.

[mswood]

I liked what they are trying to do but the have some serious flaws with it.

1st being Sam was told by Crowley what happened to Dean.

And Dean knows how difficult it is to open a gate to Purgatory. 1st blood of someone from Purgatory (the easy part as their are Leviathans still on Earth) a ritual (which Sam knows or should, though he was a bit nuts at the time), and a solar eclipse.

THat last one is a little harder for a human to manage (not even Angels can). Those do naturally occur, and they occur once every 6 months or so. Thats to open a portal, one that stays open a few seconds.

How could Sam (after all they did spend a year with even smarter help trying to figure this out) manage this, keep said portal open, manage to find Dean through out Purgatory and get out?

The answer is he couldn't and Dean should utterly know this, as Dean knew he couldn't get Sam out of Hell (though admittedly he at least knew Angels could access Hell and did have an Angel friend. So him at least looking into it, made some rational sense.

And its something Sam absolutely should have used to defend himself.

Just with what we do know, the whole issue of Dean feeling abandoned by Sam shouldn't be occurring.

2nd. With what is happening to Kevin, not once do we really hear Sam tell Kevin, listen I do know what your going through. Even when Crowley kills his girlfriend, not once does Sam let him know that he knows what its like, he just keeps silent.

Now this doesn't mean Sam wont talk to him about it, but if it doesn't occur or isn't referenced, its a huge mistake on the part of the more openly caring member of the Winchester family.

3rd. Clearly this season's focus (and perhaps more) is heavily going to feature demons. And the show still will not even address Sam. Its insulting! Hell even for them to just say oh after going to Hell God took those abilities away (and we already know no Angel or Demon has the ability to remove his power, based on what we know only God or perhaps Death himself could). Or no mention that he refuses to use them, just because he's afraid what he might became. WHich frankly also makes no sense. We know Sam was specifically designed that his drinking demon blood would never harm him, even the terrible withdrawal's are short lived.

I hate it when the show just lets something, so integral to a character just disappear without ever addressing it. It would be if Dean or Sam went to Hell and after they came back they never once mentioned it again.

Besides those three things, and some extremely poor acting on the part of the girlfriend, I really enjoyed the episode, but so much of it is based on a faulty premise that it makes it really difficult to actually buy it.

It was nice to see a slightly larger visual approach to the story telling, in places, though its clearly still a low budget tv show.

Frankly its maddening. Certainly the idea of Sam jsut refusing to do it

[Obiwanshinobi]

I kind of felt Dean was being a little hypocritical towards Sam since just a few seasons ago he did the same thing in quitting the hunting biz and attempted to start a family after Sam nosedived into Hell.

I also wonder what happened to Castiel and how he got so close to ally himself with a Leviathan.

[mswood]

Obiwanshinobi wrote:

---

I kind of felt Dean was being a little hypocritical towards Sam since just a few seasons ago he did the same thing in quitting the hunting biz and attempted to start a family after Sam nosedived into Hell.

I also wonder what happened to Castiel and how he got so close to ally himself with a Leviathan.

While Dean did go start a family with Lisa, he out and out tells Sam when Soulless Sam finds him, that he did look into trying to free Sam from Hell (something they never did research previously, and they know that Castiel can get in and out of hell, so in that case at least on paper it would be possible).

So that aspect didn't bother me. Its the fact that Dean, with Sam and the more learned Bobby spent a year trying to learn everything they could about Purgatory (how to get in), then another year on how to get something back in. He knows how Sam would have no chance at all to get him. But wanted to hear that Sam at least tried.

Not that he would want Sam to really open a portal to Purgatory and to come in (could you imagine how Dean would beat the hell out of Sam if he did that). Like he got upset at Sam when he tried to open the Devil's gate to bring Dean back, or how mad he was at Sam when he thought Sam made a deal to bring him back.

But I think he wanted some lip service that he at least looked into it.

It just seems false to me, that after all the learned from Sam going into the Pitt, and then compounded by Bobby, and Bobby not leaving well enough alone, that I think he would have understood.

It also rang false that he was upset that Sam gave up hunting. Dean has over the years (especially after the cost was clearly looking like it would kill Sam) seen that he would want out. And he knows that Sam has always wanted it. But once Sam learned he was cursed, then compounded by accidentially freeing Lucifer, Sam felt intense guilt. So much that I never saw him quitting. But after being tortured for over a hundred years, Sam came back from Hell the opposite of Dean. He came back feeling that he had paid his dues. He even told Dean straight up that.

With the lose of his closest friends and family there wouldn't be any ties to keep Sam hunting and Dean should be plenty aware of that.

It made Dean look both petty, and stupid.

Of course, Sam's reaction. What you were in Purgatory, I had no idea. Made him look dumber then a box of rocks.

They know where monsters go when they are killed. Crowley told Sam, it was created a portal.

Ie portal to Purgatory. I mean seriously, Sam is supposed to be the smart one...

It sounds like I didn't like the episode, I actually did (last season's opener was better), but this was heads and tails better then the opener to season 6.

I like where they appear to be going, just didn't like how they got there, as it really didn't work.

I am also not sold on the acting ability of Kevin.

But he actor playing Benny was great, even over shadowing Crowley (Mark Sheppard is all kinds of great) but still.

I also am less keen to like the idea that one year in Purgatory is having a more obvious impact on Dean then 4 decades in Hell.

That seems a little odd, though you could argue that Dean was really repressing those experiences at first.

[Icemizer]

I think because Deans time in hell broke him as opposed to his time in purgatory made him feel more alive is the reason it is affecting him more.

[Mister Fandango]

There's also the difference that while in Hell, Dean was basically strapped down and tortured for most of his stay whereas in Purgatory he was fully ''alive'' and fighting for his life every single minute of his stay there. Even when he was turned into the tormentor while in Hell, it was because he was forced to.

In Purgatory, on the other hand, he was in complete control, he had the power, and he was one of the apex hunters.

[Obiwanshinobi]

So purgatory is a dimensional plain where beings are corporeal and can be killed? Kind of brings another question in if you die in purgatory, where do you go from there?

[Mister Fandango]

Something else that I noticed about it is that it appeared that everyone was on equal footing there. The monster had no idea Dean was even human until he put two and two together, and no one seemed to have particularly powerful strength or even heightened senses.

[Dorian Thompson]

Sounds interesting. I hope I get a minute to watch. My boss is putting me through overtime hell. Back to work. sigh

[RJDiogenes]

Sigh. I set my VCR and then fell asleep watching Mystery In The Wax Museum on TCM. And it's not on On Demand. I hope it's watchable online somewhere.

[auntiehill]

Here ya go: Supernatural