Insurrection as an episode...

[Ghel]

Personally, I was disappointed walking out of the theater after watching this film, but it is one of the Trek films that I watch most frequently--alongside The Voyage Home. It's scale seems limited and honestly, some of the sfx are groan-worthy (such as the scale of Data's shuttlecraft against the planet) but the overall movie makes for a very enjoyable Trek "episode."

[Dream]

Tosk wrote:

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Out of curiosity, how would you react if a hostile group tried to trick you out of your home and when you found out they still tried to do it, but with violent force?

Yes, Ru'afo was a thug, but I understand why the Federation did what it did. The only thing the Federation did wrong was not reveal who they were to the Baku and attempt to work out some kind of deal with the Baku for the planet. The movie never attempted to address like this, which really weakened it IMO.

R. Star wrote:

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Exile them all which is pretty much a death sentence for them?

I wouldn't call them living out their rest of their normal lifespans a death sentence. Anij was already over 300 years old herself. Many people in the galaxy were never as lucky as the Baku were to discover the planet.

People forget that the planet was in Federation space. Also the original Baku had arrived there from another planet.

A big problem with the Baku was that they simply weren't likeable.

[horatio83]

Dream wrote:

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They might have been saved before they died? The Federation was planning to research the planet's healing propeties to improve their current medicines.

Insurrection took place during or shortly after the Dominon War. The Federation was in bad shape.

They might very well have shared their resources after the events of INS but nobody bothered to ask them, the Feds just rushed in and tried to rob them. Some fans seem to confuse the Klingon Empire and the United Federation of Planets.

Dream wrote:

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I wouldn't call them living out their rest of their normal lifespans a death sentence. Anij was already over 300 years old herself. Many people in the galaxy were never as lucky as the Baku were to discover the planet.

People forget that the planet was in Federation space. Also the original Baku had arrived there from another planet.

A big problem with the Baku was that they simply weren't likeable.

First time I heard that justice should be based upon how likable somebody is.

[Trek Survivor]

I think the limitations of budget would've made the episode(s) look a lot more hokey. One of the main draws of "Insurrection", the movie, for me is that it is very beautifully shot. Lovely location work etc. That would likely not be the same on a TV budget.

Story-wise, I suppose it would be a little more fondly remembered if it had been a 2-parter rather than a movie. But I started a thread a while back ("Learning to Love Insurrection") in which I started to actually accept the movie more after years of being disappointed in it.

[EyalM]

Insurrection is just an alien of the week story, it's not even 2-parter worthy. TNG already did a forced relocation plot (more then once, actually) and needed only 45 minutes to do it.
A two parter needs to be an "event" (like mentioned up tread), a story that needs the extended run time to unfold. If we take out most of the action scenes (which they couldn't afford on a TV budget), how much running time would we actually be left with?

[sonak]

horatio83 wrote:

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They might very well have shared their resources after the events of INS but nobody bothered to ask them, the Feds just rushed in and tried to rob them. Some fans seem to confuse the Klingon Empire and the United Federation of Planets.

First time I heard that justice should be based upon how likable somebody is.

I think it's extremely unlikely that the Baku would share their resources. They knew full well what they were sitting on, which is why they stayed there hidden, and didn't tell anyone about what they'd stumbled upon. After the events of INS, they had to have known what Dougherty was originally after.

Sympathy isn't necessary for justice, but it DOES help in a fictional story where the audience is supposed to side with a group. It has been said by many critics of INS that a major issue with it is that it's very hard to sympathize with the Baku, which cripples the movie, because we either

(a) don't care about what happens to the Baku or
(b) actively root against them




also, comparisons to "theft" and the Klingon empire are silly. Eminent domain is a pretty common policy of even democratic governments and few think it's an example of "tyranny." If a small village were sitting on a revolutionary cure for a major disease I don't think any serious people would oppose moving them to get at the cure.

[Sindatur]

Is that actually true? Few think is Eminent Domain is Tryanny? A house could be in your family for 150 years, Your Grandparents raised your parents in it, who in turn raised you in it, and you have raised your kids in it and they can simply get a wild hair and decide they can get more tax revenue by buying your house, against your will, without any chance of rejecting their offer, no compensation for relocation, and they can pay you whatever they deem they want to (Not replacement cost, no consideration for how much you owe on if it's a newer purchase, no requirement to be fair market value, no set formula, just whatever they want to pay you). Say for instance it happened now, where many mortgages are underwater, you owe $150,000 on your house, but, they deem they want to pay you $75,000. You will still owe $75,000 and no longer have a house. Are there seriously only a few people who don't consider this Tyranny?

[Starfury]

Tosk wrote:

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Out of curiosity, how would you react if a hostile group tried to trick you out of your home and when you found out they still tried to do it, but with violent force?

...which - sadly - still happens today, for instance in africa or argentina in the name of agriculture. And then people say the story of Insurrection wasn't good or meaningful and they go all haywire over a joystick and a squirrell instead.

[horatio83]

sonak wrote:

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I think it's extremely unlikely that the Baku would share their resources. They knew full well what they were sitting on, which is why they stayed there hidden, and didn't tell anyone about what they'd stumbled upon.

So what? It is their property, they can do with it whatever the hell they want. If you are militarily weak not telling the entire galaxy that you sit on a treasure seems pretty reasonable.

sonak wrote:

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also, comparisons to "theft" and the Klingon empire are silly. Eminent domain is a pretty common policy of even democratic governments and few think it's an example of "tyranny." If a small village were sitting on a revolutionary cure for a major disease I don't think any serious people would oppose moving them to get at the cure.

No democratic government does relocate people who sit on resources without telling them in advance and compensating them for their loss in the case they own a land or a house.

Here the Federation is not the government of the Ba'ku so all the Feds can legally do is to ask the Ba'ku to trade their resources. What they have done is to just take it from them which is criminally theft and politically imperialism.
When Europeans invaded and colonized Africa they also rationalized their greed and barbarism via pretending that they are actually doing something good for these uncivilized brutes. I am surprised to see a fellow left-winger doing the same.

[Ryan8bit]

If it were actually during TNG's run, it likely would have played out quite differently. As it was, the movie was written like a Voyager episode, where even Picard is acting a lot like Janeway.

[Delsaber]

Anyone remember the teaser trailers for Insurrection? They made it look like it was going to be a Federation civil war story or something crazy like that. I wonder if that would've been a better idea than what we got...

[sonak]

horatio83 wrote:

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So what? It is their property, they can do with it whatever the hell they want. If you are militarily weak not telling the entire galaxy that you sit on a treasure seems pretty reasonable.

No democratic government does relocate people who sit on resources without telling them in advance and compensating them for their loss in the case they own a land or a house.

Here the Federation is not the government of the Ba'ku so all the Feds can legally do is to ask the Ba'ku to trade their resources. What they have done is to just take it from them which is criminally theft and politically imperialism.
When Europeans invaded and colonized Africa they also rationalized their greed and barbarism via pretending that they are actually doing something good for these uncivilized brutes. I am surprised to see a fellow left-winger doing the same.

What do you mean "so what?" I was responding to YOUR suggestion that the Baku would be willing to share. Judging from what we see in the movie, they seemed selfish and utterly unconcerned about the outside galaxy.

I guess we are both surprised. I'm surprised to see a fellow left-winger defend absolute property rights as a moral principle. Doesn't seem very leftist. Sure, I support property rights as a general rule, but they come second to a greater good, such as they would have in the INS scenario. That is exactly the idea behind eminent domain. If the UFP had given the Baku compensation and paid for the resettlement, would you have supported relocation in that case?

[horatio83]

Eminent domain? The Federation doesn't rule the Ba'ku, they rule themselves. There are plenty of planets encapsulated in Federation space which contain civilizations that are not members of the Federation.

Suppose the Feds land on a planet, meet the local civilization and discover that they have ample of dilithium yet are unwilling to give it away.
Do they have to rationalize themselves to the rest of the galaxy, do you suggest that the Feds should just take it from them? Why, because they are a larger club in which more people can benefit from dilithium?
No, the appropriate thing to do is to ask them and then negotiate for a price. If the price is too high for you that is your problem, not theirs and if they are unwilling to give it away even at a high price that is still your problem and not theirs. You might have something I care deeply about but I have no right to take it forcefully from you. Strange that one has to explain something which every little kid learns in the sandbox.

[sonak]

horatio83 wrote:

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Eminent domain? The Federation doesn't rule the Ba'ku, they rule themselves. There are plenty of planets encapsulated in Federation space which contain civilizations that are not members of the Federation.

Suppose the Feds land on a planet, meet the local civilization and discover that they have ample of dilithium yet are unwilling to give it away.
Do they have to rationalize themselves to the rest of the galaxy, do you suggest that the Feds should just take it from them? Why, because they are a larger club in which more people can benefit from dilithium?
No, the appropriate thing to do is to ask them and then negotiate for a price. If the price is too high for you that is your problem, not theirs and if they are unwilling to give it away even at a high price that is still your problem and not theirs. You might have something I care deeply about but I have no right to take it forcefully from you. Strange that one has to explain something which every little kid learns in the sandbox.

Well it depends WHAT the thing in question is. If it's a fuel source, then yes you're right, you either meet their price or they keep it or negotiate with someone else.


If it's a revolutionary medical resource that can cure most diseases, can regrow eyes, can extend life spans, etc., then you negotiate at first, but if that doesn't work, you certainly don't just shrug and walk away. Yes, you would eventually take it and administer it in a fair way that benefits the larger society.


And tell me you actually think that if the cure for cancer was found on some small group's land and they didn't want to move, that people would just shrug and say "oh well, we tried."

[horatio83]

Of course not, people would forcefully take it from them. And I'd be the first one to say that it is wrong. And I'd say it is wrong to relocate these people with the help of a bunch of thugs who help you fight a war. And I'd say it is wrong to not simply ask them and negotiate with them.
If you value something so much, pay the fucking price for it. First time I have to use bourgeois logic against imperialism but, well, I guess there is a first time for everything.

I am pretty sure that you would also be on my side when a bunch of mercenaries like Blackwater would claim that they have found a cure against AIDS on a small island in the Pacific Ocean, go in there and take it from them.
History is full of self-righteous people who rationalized their crimes with bullshit like serving the common good. It is not full of Robin Hoods and a political entity which corporates with a bunch of "petty thugs" to win a war is certainly not a Robin Hood who is interested in sharing their medical innovations with the entire quadrant or galaxy. Since "Journey to Babel" this has been perfectly clear, they will take it and keep it.