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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 30 2012, 10:04 AM   #46
beamMe
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Re: The Genesis planet...

Tiberius wrote: View Post
"The Lost World" is an example of where "world" has a meaning other than "planet."

The ST2 script specifically says "planet". I'm not aware that "planet" has a meaning other than "Big round thing that orbits a star."

"Instead of a dead moon a living, breathing planet."

In the movie itself (in the presentation video) Calor Marcus' "planet" is born out of a "moon".
It would seem that their terminology is all over the place.

Considering how fast Genesis forms, it is a far more logical and easier explanation that the Genesis-wave re-formed Regula.
It has an "instantaneous affect" on an already existing body; but I think it would take a little longer than just a few minutes for all that mass, all that matter to gather to form a planet - Genesis effect or not.
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Old September 30 2012, 10:18 AM   #47
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Re: The Genesis planet...

At least in hindsight, the rapid formation of the planet foreshadows its rapid evolution and death.
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Old September 30 2012, 10:43 AM   #48
Tiberius
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Re: The Genesis planet...

beamMe wrote: View Post
Considering how fast Genesis forms, it is a far more logical and easier explanation that the Genesis-wave re-formed Regula.
In a universe where faster than light travel is commonplace, how can you tell?
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Old September 30 2012, 02:19 PM   #49
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Re: The Genesis planet...

Tiberius wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
Considering how fast Genesis forms, it is a far more logical and easier explanation that the Genesis-wave re-formed Regula.
In a universe where faster than light travel is commonplace, how can you tell?
What?
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Old October 1 2012, 12:01 AM   #50
Therin of Andor
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Re: The Genesis planet...

beamMe wrote: View Post
"Instead of a dead moon a living, breathing planet."
Because the Presentation Tape was a simulation, made years earlier, of how the effect might work when directed at a dead moon. But, spurred on by the success with the Genesis Cave within Regula, Reliant's crew had been asked to find a "completely lifeless" planet.

The script states that the effect we see is "the 'Genesis Effect' WE SAW in its earliest experiments, now seems familiar on a gigantic, cosmic scale. The blinding flash at first, followed by the same tumbling turbulence of the miniature test. It is awesome."

The torpedo was not meant to be detonated inside a nebula. The wave was not constrained and its effects were bigger and unpredictable.

Another thought: if Regula was simply transformed, why not keep calling it Regula, instead of "The Genesis Planet"? What are Klingons doing poking around Regula, presumably in Federation space; doesn't it make more sense that they are trying to check out why a huge nebula disappeared?
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Last edited by Therin of Andor; October 1 2012 at 12:11 AM. Reason: tweaking
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Old October 1 2012, 04:22 AM   #51
Tiberius
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Re: The Genesis planet...

beamMe wrote: View Post
Tiberius wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
Considering how fast Genesis forms, it is a far more logical and easier explanation that the Genesis-wave re-formed Regula.
In a universe where faster than light travel is commonplace, how can you tell?
What?
Since we suspend our incredulity to accept that faster than light travel is possible in the Trekverse, how can we say that the rapid formation of the Genesis planet from the nebula strains credibility? Faster than light travel should strain it even more!
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Old October 1 2012, 04:25 AM   #52
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Re: The Genesis planet...

Regula appears to be outside of the Nebula based on the pictures. It might even be outside the Genesis Wave's range. Weren't the Enterprise and the Reliant deep in the Nebula when the Genesis Device went off?
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Old October 1 2012, 04:50 AM   #53
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Re: The Genesis planet...

Tiberius wrote: View Post
"The Lost World" is an example of where "world" has a meaning other than "planet."

The ST2 script specifically says "planet". I'm not aware that "planet" has a meaning other than "Big round thing that orbits a star."
Except that the post you are replying to was specifically responding to an entirely different line that you quoted. No one was talking about the word "planet" because that's not what you brought up:

Tiberius wrote: View Post
"A new world being born" is quite clear.
It should also be noted that in pretty much almost every context, a dead class D moon being transformed into a lush class M planet would warrant terminology such as "new world" and anyone in ear shot of the conversation wouldn't give it a second thought.
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Old October 1 2012, 06:36 AM   #54
Tiberius
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Re: The Genesis planet...

Well, given that Regula is clearly not inside the nebula, and given that the detonation of the Genesis Device happens within the nebula, how could the planetoid be caught in its effects?

Give it up. There's no way that Regula became Genesis.
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Old October 1 2012, 10:59 AM   #55
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Re: The Genesis planet...

To the contrary, nothing in the movie(s) gives support to the idea that Genesis would be capable of creating planets out of nothingness. That's neither what it was created for, nor what it was credited for.

The device has exacting requirements that keep a starship occupied in an ultimately fruitless search for what sounds like months at least. It's not going to mutate itself into a different device altogether (not unless itself struck by another Genesis device at least ).

Well, given that Regula is clearly not inside the nebula, and given that the detonation of the Genesis Device happens within the nebula, how could the planetoid be caught in its effects?
Why should this be a problem? We never get any indication that the nebula would for be a barrier for the Genesis wave in any manner. Obviously, it is going to reach Kirk's starship unless Kirk goes to warp - so just as obviously, it's going to reach a planetoid that Kirk only very recently departed at damaged impulse.

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Old October 1 2012, 11:31 AM   #56
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Re: The Genesis planet...

Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
Regula appears to be outside of the Nebula based on the pictures. It might even be outside the Genesis Wave's range. Weren't the Enterprise and the Reliant deep in the Nebula when the Genesis Device went off?
They were in the heart of a very large, very dense nebula that was out of visual range of Regula even at it's boundry, based on the rear facing shots from both the Enterprise and Reliant when finally entering the nebula.
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Old October 1 2012, 11:40 AM   #57
Tiberius
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Re: The Genesis planet...

Timo wrote: View Post
To the contrary, nothing in the movie(s) gives support to the idea that Genesis would be capable of creating planets out of nothingness. That's neither what it was created for, nor what it was credited for.
When did anyone say it created the planet out of nothing? You clearly see the nebula vanishing in the movie, so the Genesis device is creating the planet out of the nebula!

The device has exacting requirements that keep a starship occupied in an ultimately fruitless search for what sounds like months at least. It's not going to mutate itself into a different device altogether (not unless itself struck by another Genesis device at least ).
A different device? Who says it did that?

Carol Marcus's own proposal tape says that the device is intended to be used on a "lifeless space body; a moon or other dead form." Her exact words. A nebula would certainly count as a lifeless space body, yes? She then goes on to say, "Matter is reorganized, with life-generating results." Again, this shows that the device can reorganize matter, so why is it impossible for it to reorganize nebula matter?

Well, given that Regula is clearly not inside the nebula, and given that the detonation of the Genesis Device happens within the nebula, how could the planetoid be caught in its effects?
Why should this be a problem? We never get any indication that the nebula would for be a barrier for the Genesis wave in any manner. Obviously, it is going to reach Kirk's starship unless Kirk goes to warp - so just as obviously, it's going to reach a planetoid that Kirk only very recently departed at damaged impulse.

Timo Saloniemi
I never said that the nebula gas would be a barrier. The DISTANCE is the barrier. The Mutara Nebula was far enough away from Regula that we never saw it when the Enterprise was at the planetoid. And even when the Enterprise approaches it, you can still see the whole thing on the screen - bear in mind that nebulas are very big, so the Enterprise would still have been quite a long way from it.

And finally, the Enterprise only has four minutes to escape. They can't go very far in four minutes limited to Impulse speed. However, the journey to the nebula could easily have taken quite a bit longer. We saw the crew of the Enterprise preparing the ship for battle, and obviously it will take them some time to do that.

So exactly how big a blast radius do you think the Genesis device has?
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Old October 1 2012, 02:09 PM   #58
Timo
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Re: The Genesis planet...

I don't see any of the ambiguities you postulate. We have a pretty good idea of how far the nebula is from the Regula rock, say. For one thing, Spock believes they can escape Khan by going there - which already means Spock doesn't think their escape will be due to a long chase in which they outrun Khan. Indeed, this they clearly cannot do, because Khan easily catches up with them and fires a torpedo at them. Almost immediately thereafter, Kirk is so close to the nebula that Khan wisely ponders giving up pursuit, until goaded by Kirk not to.

There simply isn't any plot time for or plot logic in a long, slow chase where Khan gradually catches up. After all, Khan doesn't move at full speed initially. If there were a chase, he'd win it by throttling up. But there is just this surprise pounce from Regula to nebula, during which Khan doesn't have time to think through the implications.

Indeed, the trip from Regula to the final confrontation might well take just the four minutes specified for the escape. But there would be nothing wrong with the distance being more like twenty light-minutes, plenty enough to make the local star basically invisible (although perhaps still capable of creating the odd lighting effects in the nebula, assuming the camera just ramped up the contrast). There is no reason to think the Genesis wave would have its range limited to any specific figure, other than the implicit "It will engulf us if we don't warp but the rest of the universe will still be fine".

You clearly see the nebula vanishing in the movie, so the Genesis device is creating the planet out of the nebula!
Obviously not - since the nebula disappears along with the starship, but nothing is created in its place. We see but ejecta there, on its way somewhere else.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...twokhd1033.jpg

The camera then cuts away from this location, which remains visibly empty. And then we have bridge action. And then we see the already readymade planet, in an unknown direction at an unknown distance.

It may be at the center of the wave. Or it may be at one of its impact points, just as in the simulation we saw.

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Old October 1 2012, 04:50 PM   #59
beamMe
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Re: The Genesis planet...

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
beamMe wrote: View Post
"Instead of a dead moon a living, breathing planet."
Because the Presentation Tape was a simulation, made years earlier, of how the effect might work when directed at a dead moon. But, spurred on by the success with the Genesis Cave within Regula, Reliant's crew had been asked to find a "completely lifeless" planet.
No, in the presentation simulation they turned "a dead moon" into a "living, breathing planet".

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
The script states that the effect we see is "the 'Genesis Effect' WE SAW in its earliest experiments, now seems familiar on a gigantic, cosmic scale. The blinding flash at first, followed by the same tumbling turbulence of the miniature test. It is awesome."
To bad the film doesn't show us that.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
The torpedo was not meant to be detonated inside a nebula.
Who said something else?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
The wave was not constrained and its effects were bigger and unpredictable.
Yes, it could still reach Regula.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Another thought: if Regula was simply transformed, why not keep calling it Regula, instead of "The Genesis Planet"?
Perhaps because it became the culmination of the Genesis Project when the Genesis Device's explosion turned it from a "great rock in space" into a "living planet". (But really, you'd have to ask Harve Bennett.)


Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
What are Klingons doing poking around Regula, presumably in Federation space; doesn't it make more sense that they are trying to check out why a huge nebula disappeared?
Have you seen Star Trek III?
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Old October 1 2012, 04:55 PM   #60
beamMe
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Re: The Genesis planet...

Ti-BOO!-rius wrote: View Post
The Mutara Nebula was far enough away from Regula that we never saw it when the Enterprise was at the planetoid.
Honestly.



Did you watch that movie with your eyes closed?
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