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Old August 8 2014, 02:21 AM   #916
urbandefault
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Maurice wrote: View Post
Perhaps the fact that people are discussing the one line has less to do with how offensive it is or isn't but how little they have to be to say about the script otherwise.
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Old August 8 2014, 05:38 AM   #917
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

urbandefault wrote: View Post
Who here is old enough to remember Richard Pryor in his prime? If not, look up his 1974 album That Nxxxxr's Crazy.
I can't find any listing for a Pryor album named that.
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Old August 8 2014, 12:55 PM   #918
Duncan MacLeod
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Try here.

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Old August 8 2014, 02:33 PM   #919
BillJ
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Maurice wrote: View Post
It's not just generic swearing, it's misogynistic language. We can agree or disagree if it's appropriate dramatically, but let's be honest about what the kind of cursing it is.
Sure.

But I doubt that if aliens came to the planet Earth, they would ask what the appropriate way to offend us is. The whole point of an insult is to insult someone.

It's a sloppy insult, which would stand to reason for a race that doesn't have English as its first (or second or third) language. Plus, it is a bit of grudging respect because they know who she is well enough to take the time to insult her.

People have every right to be offended by it but I honestly don't understand being offended by it. YMMV.
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Old August 8 2014, 03:33 PM   #920
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

I've thought about it. I'm not offended. I just don't like it. There's a difference, I think.

The line was written to get a reaction. It got one.
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Old August 8 2014, 03:49 PM   #921
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

urbandefault wrote: View Post
Dropping F-bombs just because you can isn't a tool, it just shows that the writer could have a better grasp of the language. It makes him a tool.
The most important thing is it should reflect how the characters talk. If everyone in a show (or R-rated movie) are swearing like drunken sailors, it paints a monolithic portrait. Not everyone speaks that way, or speaks that way in all moods and circumstances.

Barbreader wrote: View Post
The effectiveness of curse words is inversely proportional to how often they are used. Used as a pause in speech, (instead of, say, 'uh...') and they convey that the speaker is crude, nothing more. Used once in three movies (or less) and they punch like a heavyweight champion.
Anything taboo that's overused loses its impact. That's why Kirk's "let's get the hell out of here" in City on the Edge of Forever seems to hold more import than all the swears combined in Seth MacFarlane's Ted, because it stands out.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Yet people are sweating a few swear words in a story about what was likely a devastating war. It really makes me go "what the fuck!"
I think the bigger issue is the internet, especially uncensored forums like this one, are a big factor in "normalizing" profanity even with young kids. I mean, nobody seems to be aware or care in the least about the demographics of the audience of what they're saying because it's the internet and you can't physically see them.

I'd say the #1 source of exposure of swears to kids are casual swearing like the above, on places kids hang out like Facebook or Youtube comments.
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Old August 8 2014, 03:51 PM   #922
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Tallguy wrote: View Post
I've thought about it. I'm not offended. I just don't like it. There's a difference, I think.

The line was written to get a reaction. It got one.
I really didn't even take notice of it until I came here beyond the bad guys called one of the good guys something not so nice. Definitely didn't think of it as something worthy of discussion.
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Old August 8 2014, 04:38 PM   #923
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Tallguy wrote: View Post
I don’t know if I’d say I’m prudish or not. (Some might.) I watch and enjoy shows with all kinds of content. And Axanar isn’t being made for ten year olds.

But in this specific case the line rang false to me. It sounded like “Hey, let’s use some really real real words here!” It just didn’t sound right. (Maybe it needs more? Dunno.)

I remember in Generations when Data said “Ohhhh, s***!” It was honestly note perfect. And I cringed because I figured since this worked so well they’d try it again in the next movie and do it badly. Kind of like how the swearing in The Voyage Home felt very organic and funny but it led to the swearing in The Final Frontier which sounded forced and like it was trying to get what TVH had.

OTOH, I’ve never heard swearing and thought “how grown up!”
well said.
For the record, I am giving an opinion. I think the writers want to turn out the best film they can make. If so they want opinions.
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Old August 8 2014, 06:02 PM   #924
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

mos6507 wrote: View Post

I think the bigger issue is the internet, especially uncensored forums like this one, are a big factor in "normalizing" profanity even with young kids. I mean, nobody seems to be aware or care in the least about the demographics of the audience of what they're saying because it's the internet and you can't physically see them.

I'd say the #1 source of exposure of swears to kids are casual swearing like the above, on places kids hang out like Facebook or Youtube comments.
I have to disagree there. Trektoday is censored to an extent. Otherwise, I wouldn't have my own blog where I talk about my experiences as an African American fan of Trek as well as my experiences on this site. (Even though I can make it searchable for the public, but still keep it moderated).

And, profanity with 'young kids' isn't something new. Profanity is heard through music - or whatever passes for it - and on school grounds (e.g. the high school level). Not too mention, it's heard in movies that some young adults are able to walk into - I should know, because I recall being able to get a ticket to House Party 2 during a day I cut school - and this was back in the early 90s!

As for the line in Axanar, I think it was adequate for the scene. Kate Vernon's character made an impact to the Klingons, and because of that they are they called her something disrespectful. Based on the context of the 20 min short, this was a huge war that the Klingons were very sure that they were going to win without much pressure from the Federation.

As stated before, I still get jarred by the term 'pinkskins' to describe humans - when many humans like myself are far from 'pink.' (Note: I'm more of a dark chocolate).

The people of Axanar aren't obligated to call out that particular area of racism that originated with the ENT writers....but, again, it is jarring as something you might hear in a 1950s sci-fi story.
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Old August 8 2014, 06:44 PM   #925
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

I wonder what the color reception of different species is in Star Trek. The comment about 'pink skins' from Joel_Kirk left me thinking about how different species see color differently. Adorians might not be able to see what to them is a very slight difference in color between Africans and Swedes, because all they see is, "It's not blue!" What we see as chocolate and light tan might all be very very bright pink to them. The others colors we see that make us different shades of brown might be much less bright. We all have red blood just under the skin.

Turtles can see infra-red and ultra-violet. Just replace a bulb that is burned out in those spectra in a turtle's tank and watch the reaction. I can't see the difference without a light meter, but the turtle goes nuts. HE sees it easily. It's absolutely clear he sees color differently than I do. (Yes, I have a turtle.)

That said, calling all earth humans pink skins does seem dated, even for the 1990s. I could see it in a story written in 1950, but the 1990s? That's weird.
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Old August 8 2014, 07:26 PM   #926
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
The people of Axanar aren't obligated to call out that particular area of racism that originated with the ENT writers....but, again, it is jarring as something you might hear in a 1950s sci-fi story.
This of course assumes that a race of largely blue skinned aliens would have a reason to give a crap about the differences in ethnic groups of a species that at the time was largely technologically inferior to them and barely removed from nuking each other over some likely idiotic arbitrary thing.
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Old August 8 2014, 08:47 PM   #927
Joel_Kirk
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Barbreader wrote: View Post
I wonder what the color reception of different species is in Star Trek. The comment about 'pink skins' from Joel_Kirk left me thinking about how different species see color differently. Adorians might not be able to see what to them is a very slight difference in color between Africans and Swedes, because all they see is, "It's not blue!" What we see as chocolate and light tan might all be very very bright pink to them. The others colors we see that make us different shades of brown might be much less bright. We all have red blood just under the skin.

Turtles can see infra-red and ultra-violet. Just replace a bulb that is burned out in those spectra in a turtle's tank and watch the reaction. I can't see the difference without a light meter, but the turtle goes nuts. HE sees it easily. It's absolutely clear he sees color differently than I do. (Yes, I have a turtle.)

That said, calling all earth humans pink skins does seem dated, even for the 1990s. I could see it in a story written in 1950, but the 1990s? That's weird.
Good post...

Too, given that term was used by Soval, I wonder when or if it was phased out. For example, an Andorian ambassador coming to a meeting with dark-skinned Admiral (as dark as, say, actor Peter Mensah) around the time of Axanar probably wouldn't find said Admiral taken too kindly about being called a 'pinkskin.'

I can see him (or her) - human Ambassador or Admiral - saying, "I won't tolerate racism, Ambassador. Address me by my title or as a individual, or this meeting is over."

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Joel_Kirk wrote: View Post
The people of Axanar aren't obligated to call out that particular area of racism that originated with the ENT writers....but, again, it is jarring as something you might hear in a 1950s sci-fi story.
This of course assumes that a race of largely blue skinned aliens would have a reason to give a crap about the differences in ethnic groups of a species that at the time was largely technologically inferior to them and barely removed from nuking each other over some likely idiotic arbitrary thing.
True, but it also makes them seem ignorant. And, it begs the question of if they came across a human crew that was predominantly dark-skinned....how would that particular interaction be? Would it show the Andorians racist against humans as a whole or based on skin/shade?

It also begs the question of how others within the Andorian race or treated if they have different shades or colors? (I understand there were albino Andorians, but I forget if there was anything said about differences of treatment).

The Cardassians had their own racial prejudices and chauvinistic attitudes as well, but they were fleshed out and we found out that not everyone held the same beliefs. We don't get this with the Andorians based on how they were portrayed in ENT; they come off one-dimensional in what we are told on their racial views or anything that shows some diversity within the Andorian community.

Again, this goes in line with the Klingons bad-mouthing Kate Vernon's character: While we don't get anything further on the Andorians and their views on race, we do get an idea that Klingons will use harsh language - gender specific in the language of the enemy - to save face.

Based on what we know of Klingons: they like to fight, they do have women who usually hold equal or higher ranks, they seem to pretty much have the same complexions - although, there are some who are darker or lighter than others - and they usually make verbal curses in their own language. However, as stated earlier, the fact that Vernon's character made such an impact in a previous battle...means a couple of people on the opposing side have taken notice and that they are going to bad-mouth her in the language, albeit harsh language, that she is familiar with.

Of course, based on the context, I'm sure the character plans on sending more photon torpedoes 'up their shaft.'
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Old August 8 2014, 10:04 PM   #928
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Squiggy wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
What I find most offensive here... That's just plain bad manners.
This offends me.
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BillJ wrote: View Post
But I doubt that if aliens came to the planet Earth, they would ask what the appropriate way to offend us is. The whole point of an insult is to insult someone.
If the Klingons used the N word to describe one of the characters, would that be considered acceptable in this film because the Klingons want "the appropriate way to offend us"?

Nnnnnope.
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Old August 8 2014, 10:11 PM   #929
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Maurice wrote: View Post
If the Klingons used the N word to describe one of the characters, would that be considered acceptable in this film because the Klingons want "the appropriate way to offend us"?

Nnnnnope.
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Old August 8 2014, 10:13 PM   #930
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Please don't compare "n***er" to "bitch" again.

Not even in the same league. Just don't.
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