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Fan Productions Creating our own Trek canon!

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Old June 19 2014, 09:37 AM   #571
northstar
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

There are a couple of people on this and on other boards that just seem to critize all the time without producing something by themselves. They claim they do "constructive criticism" - what ever that may be. I can very well imagine that things like Maurices commentary
"Slickly produced. 'Fraid it doesn't interest me at all, however. I'm bored with space wars and space battles and scenes of starships that lumber around at subsonic speeds at point blank range like 15th century galleons. It's not exciting. YMMV." or " I'm done with the space battles"
is not really helping a lot. It does not read as constructive, rather as a prejudgement because it does not line up with the personal interest of the poster.

I don´t know what is Axanar going to be like, but from what I´ve seen in the trailer, they know pretty well what they are doing and I hope they won´t do just space battles for the sake of space battles. But to pre-judge a production to me is not the way to go.
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Old June 19 2014, 10:15 AM   #572
USS Intrepid
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

I've worked on a number of these productions, and know quite a few of the people involved. I've seen enough of what's going on with Axanar to know I'll enjoy it, regardless of what others may think.

I also happen to know both posters well enough (Maurice while blunt is never anything but honest and well-meaning) to know that your characterisation of them is mistaken, though I'll grant they aren't always entirely diplomatic. To be fair though, it's very, very easy to misread tone on the internet.

The comment you mention was clearly a statement of personal opinion and couched as such. I don't see any issue with someone saying 'looks good but not my cup of tea', which essentially what Maurice said.
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Old June 19 2014, 01:06 PM   #573
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

I'm fine with a "space battle themed" Axanar. Alec is a big fan of some of the older WWII films regarding the war in the Pacific (at least I think so,) and David Gerrold has indicated that he likes the script, so I think we are going to see a lot more than just space battles.

Star Trek has seen so many space battles, the trick in scripting the battle is to do something we haven't seen before, and I'm very curious to see what Axanar will come up with. We know from Alec's comments that the shuttles will be heaving involved, but that's about all we know.

Personally I love the science aspect of science fiction, so I'd love to see a space battle filmed realistically. I have no idea how ships that are capable of traveling at hundreds of times the speed of light would actually engage in a battle, but it is interesting to speculate. My guess is that the ships would never see each other or be anywhere near each other at any point in the battle, and I guess that makes for boring entertainment, or possibly fascinating drama.
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Old June 19 2014, 01:51 PM   #574
tobiasrichter
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

I apologize if I came across to harsh, but irony translating from german to english sometimes fails...

I value Maurices opinion a lot, but if he says he doesn´t want to see more space battles, then my advice stands, as there will be a lot of that in Axanar and he might not have a good time watching it.

It´s rather easy to critic projects afterwards, but it is impossible to change those projects for the people who work on it, which makes it an extremely frustrating experience. I am not against critic - I would just advise everyone who really has something to offer to offer that advice to the fan productions that are out there doing their projects right now and actually have some influence when it is still possible. If it is done in time, critic - such as some remarks about the city shots we had in the trailer - is taken seriously and we´re trying to improve those shots within the given timeframe.

Of course there will also be a great story with great characters in Axanar - and I hope it will come across that this drama is the source for the space battles. I myself also don´t like battles without a reason or without some character conflict as it´s ground. Star Trek 2 is still my most loved trek film, also because of the drama between Kirk and Khan and the resulting space battles.

That sort of battle will also be one of the visual sources for some of the battles we will see in Axanar. I sort of like the idea of galleons in space - I suppose Gene did the same when he was thinking about "Hornblower in space".

Of course, from a scientific standpoints it´s pretty much nonsense. Like Duane said, it would be most likely that the ships don´t see each other, firing invisible shots, having no or very unimpressive explosions, having no sound. It might be very boring and not very exciting. It would be for a very interesting experiment to make a movie like that. Unfortunately, it is not Star Trek, so we´re going with the more established way of doing our space battles.

I hope you will all enjoy our mocumentary "Prelude to Axanar", which should be out in a couple of weeks - and will hopefully help us on the way to our main feature.
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Old June 19 2014, 02:14 PM   #575
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

diriel wrote: View Post
The acting is top shelf, the Fx are top shelf...
I think Top shelf must mean something else where you come from.



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Old June 19 2014, 02:43 PM   #576
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

northstar wrote: View Post
There are a couple of people on this and on other boards that just seem to critize all the time without producing something by themselves. They claim they do "constructive criticism" - what ever that may be.
If you don't know what constitutes "construtive criticism" how can you possibly know to be opposed to it?

Too, it's a logical fallacy that just because someone hasn't actually produced a fan film, they can therefore not at all possibly be in a position to offer an informed opinion on the way it's made. This retort is trotted out any time someone doesn't like what they're getting in terms of feedback. Alec is a big fan of relying on it as a defense too, and it made it impossible to actually have any kind of critical debate or discussion with him.

Maurice is a successful filmmaker in his own right. I've worked in television for the last 8 years, largely in the writer's rooms of hour-long dramas produced by ABC Studios. We two have professional experience in the industry and deal with the making of films and TV every day. I fail to see how that somehow omits any possibility that we might actually know what we're talking about.

Would my opinion be different if I'd made my own fan film? Probably. But the truth is, I have no interest in making a fan film. As a fan and as a professional, I do like to offer my opinion, informed by the benefit of my experience in a field that not too many seem to have actually taken in these circles. And while I might be blunt about it sometimes or may not present my opinions in the most approachable way possible at times, it does come informed not only by my own professional consideration but also my own personal opinions and experience, making it uniquely my take on whatever project I'm commenting on. The fact that I've not chosen to make a fan film does not invalidate anything I have to say; to adhere to such a philosophy is entirely closed-minded.

I can very well imagine that things like Maurices commentary
"Slickly produced. 'Fraid it doesn't interest me at all, however. I'm bored with space wars and space battles and scenes of starships that lumber around at subsonic speeds at point blank range like 15th century galleons. It's not exciting. YMMV." or " I'm done with the space battles"
is not really helping a lot. It does not read as constructive, rather as a prejudgement because it does not line up with the personal interest of the poster. [/quoted]

Again, personal opinion. Based on what we've seen so far, the majority of Axanar has been promoted as featuring Tobias' gorgeous space battle work. Expressing the opinion that, after the last decade of fan films one would rather not see another film full of space battles doesn't mean anyone is trashing Axanar. It's just an opinion based on what we know so far.

[quoted]I don´t know what is Axanar going to be like, but from what I´ve seen in the trailer, they know pretty well what they are doing and I hope they won´t do just space battles for the sake of space battles. But to pre-judge a production to me is not the way to go.
My personal opinion is that Axanar has big shoes to fill. It also has going against it because (for me, based on previous experience interacting with him) I don't particularly have the highest opinion of David Gerrold or his opinion on what constitutes good writing, so the only way for me to actually know if the film or the script is any good would be to read it myself or see the film when it's done.

Too, Alec, during his time here was completely and consistently unable to handle anything other than absolute praise for what he was doing, and that's naturally off-putting. There is a whole wide range of useful, constructive reaction that can be offered up for discussion in these film reviews, and like USS Intrepid stated above, those opinions should not get thrown out just because of the usual deluge of the haters and mindless trolling comments.

I continue to be very interested in seeing how the project turns out and as with every film I watch, I approach it with as much of a detached and unbiased opinion as I can when I start to watch. All I've seen so far is tons of clips of space battles and a trailer with several professional actors and Alec. I am eagerly waiting to see how (and if) it all comes together.

Last edited by doubleohfive; June 19 2014 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Grammar
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Old June 19 2014, 03:17 PM   #577
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

USS Intrepid wrote: View Post
Maurice and doubleohfive are consistently constructive with their criticism, and I know from personal experience over many years that it is offered in good spirit (even if we don't always agree). While I realise misunderstandings and bruised feelings are a frequent result of online communications, I would suggest that folks take a step back and consider that constructive critique is not a personal attack.

We all know there are legions of mindless bashers prowling the net and taking potshots at the work of fanfilm producers. We'll never get away from that. Hell, some people just don't like fanfilms. Fine, that's a matter of taste. But let's not dismiss the people who do actually have something constructive to say just because we've been burned by others.

Also, for what it's worth, I think Axanar's going to be excellent. But that's just my opinion.
This

A lot of us that argue here have met in person at on point or another and have gotten along just fine. We are a bunch of strong minded motivated people and thus ego's will clash at times.
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Old June 19 2014, 04:30 PM   #578
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

I think there's a disconnect here that's partially caused by the subject of the movie.

Because Axanar is about a space battle, and this thread's about that movie, it's relatively easy to take the statement that a particular person doesn't want to see space battles as meaning they don't want to see Axanar.

It's a valid criticism of fan films, as space battles are too easy to use as a substitute for real drama; but in context I can see how some might have interpreted it as an attack.
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Old June 19 2014, 05:53 PM   #579
Lord Garth, FOI
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I like what I see in the trailer, but I'm disappointed to see the new movie-inspired ships have been shrunk down and had their proportions modified. I really hoped to see them in their glory in this film, amongst the emerging newer and smaller TOS-era vessels. DS9's Defiant was a small warship compared to the capital ships of the 24th century, so I'm not sure why the need to make the Ares roughly equal size to the rest of the fleet in this instance.

That nerdy quibble aside, the CG is wonderfully detailed and to a very high standard. The pseudohistorical approach is a very clever idea indeed. The acting seems good (as much as one can tell from small trailer snippets!). Congratulations and I look forward to the finished product!
Thought this very thing.
Tobias I loved each beautiful shot but I am curious as to why the decision was made to downsize the gigantic JJ era ships to TOS sizes.
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Old June 19 2014, 06:23 PM   #580
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Dennis wrote: View Post
I've been active in Trek fandom since 1973. "Those times" didn't exist.
been active since 1975 myself, and I agree "those times" NEVER existed, and Star trek fans have been nitpicking everything to death, arguing about GR's 'true Star Trek vision' was (and as someone who did once pay his $15.00 entrance fee (at CSUN in 1982 when he came by with the Star Trek Blooper reels on 16mm film); I'd say it was "To make as much money as he can AFTER selling the Star Trek IP and licensing to Paramount"...

But, yeah, basically my take on Star Trek fandom from day one has been:

Ask 100 fans what 'True Star Trek' is, and you'll get 110 different answers.
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Old June 19 2014, 06:59 PM   #581
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

I certainly understand the concern that Axanar could just be another collection of space battles with a few lines of dialogue to break things up. (That's kind of the formula porno films used to use...now they don't even bother with breaking things up...sorry I digress)\

However, I do think that there is real potential for something more than just mindless shoot em up action here, since we've come to accept that Axanar was the moment that solidified the Federation and allowed it to become what we've come to know as the Trek Universe.

From what I've seen I think that's being taken into account and we have the possibility of seeing some well-rounded characters and some interesting ideas.
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Old June 19 2014, 06:59 PM   #582
tobiasrichter
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Lord Garth, FOI wrote: View Post

Thought this very thing.
Tobias I loved each beautiful shot but I am curious as to why the decision was made to downsize the gigantic JJ era ships to TOS sizes.
We had a lot of discussions about that, believe me. Basically two reasons:
- The Federation ships would be huge compared to the Klingon ships. It would be visually very difficult to convey the Klingons as a threat to such a fleet.
- The Enterprise should be the biggest, boldest ship in the fleet, so again, it would visually be impossible to convey that with a ship that is dwarfed by those "old" vessels.

Internally we would like to think that Starfleet has made some technology advancements after the Kelvin, so the new ships do not need to be that big anymore.
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Old June 19 2014, 09:03 PM   #583
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

A few things to consider.

A trailer is designed to tease an audience into wanting to see the product. That's what's been posted. No one can be surprised when not everyone is "teased". Some are going to go "Bring it on!" and others are gonna go, "What's new on Vsauce?"

People frequently post that they don't think criticism is "helpful" or "productive". Is it? Turn that phrase around: how is fawning over something "helpful" or "productive" other than to give its makers ego boo? It isn't.

Which is a good entrée as any about what it means to "criticize"
1. indicate the faults (of someone or something) in a disapproving way

2. form and present a sophisticated judgement of (a literary or artistic work)
A lot people conflate these two. They think "to criticize" a film is to indicate its faults in a disapproving way. It's not. To critique a work is to discuss its merits both positive and negative. "You take the good you take the bad you take them both and there you have..."

And on the topic of being "helpful", I'd humbly point to the two long-running topics I created in this forum specifically for fan filmmakers to share tips and information on everything from simple lighting setups to script formatting, all with an eye to help them make their films better. My motives are purely to help them. Sometimes that comes in the form of tough love.

Finally, anyone who's worked with me knows that I invite fair critique. Heck, I only work with people capable of giving and taking it. (A running critique between my writing partner and I on a comedy we were writing a few years ago was to say "just like that, only funny" which is about as brutal a thing as you can say about a joke.) I want to hear what works and what doesn't. Sure, a lot of it's going to be influenced by individual tastes, but there's nothing wrong with hearing it. If only one or two people like or dismiss something that might just be their taste. If seven or ten all comment on the same thing, good or bad, then I should take notice.

Thanks for hearing (reading?) me out.
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Old June 19 2014, 09:34 PM   #584
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Maurice wrote: View Post
Finally, anyone who's worked with me knows that I invite fair critique. Heck, I only work with people capable of giving and taking it.
I really think there's a difference in attitude between professionals who have made a life-long commitment to hone their craft and keep moving from one project to the next and hobbyists who, in most cases, have just one deeply personal pet-project that they've been dreaming to do for decades. I think that explains why hobbyists tend to be more defensive of their vision, because they're doing it, first and foremost, to satisfy themselves. I don't mean that as a bash. Hobbyists can take more risks, which is ultimately a good thing.
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Old June 20 2014, 12:06 AM   #585
Lord Garth, FOI
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Thanks Tobias understood
Very excited for the project
Best of luck
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