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Fan Productions Creating our own Trek canon!

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Old February 16 2014, 06:04 AM   #331
PattyW
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

well if he's NOT bothered by what he did, then he's a sociopath...and we're right back where we began....
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Old February 16 2014, 05:44 PM   #332
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

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Old February 16 2014, 05:45 PM   #333
Loken
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

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Old February 18 2014, 04:10 AM   #334
doubleohfive
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Loken wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
For crying out loud, the guy committed genocide. I just don't see any way to rationalize putting the guy back in command of a starship after something like that.
Wrong. Garth didn't commit Genocide, he attempted it but was stopped by his crew. (Watch Whom Gods Destroy starting at minute 18.)
Is that supposed to make it less terrible a crime? The fact that others stopped him?

So not being at fault for his mental illness, and not being legally liable for his actions, and being fully cured, and (in our take) having no memory of anything that happened after the accident, Starfleet returning one of their most important captains to service is not unlikely in an enlightened universe that Roddenberry created.
...it still stretched credibility. I'm not saying I don't think you may have found a way to make it work (I'll comment on that point after I see Axanar in its entirety) I'm just saying that right now, what we know of Garth, it really seems implausible.
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Old February 18 2014, 04:45 AM   #335
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

my problem is that if Garth isn't bothered by all this than he's pretty much a flat cartoon rather than a three dimensional Human. Which is a problem that a lot of fanfilm scripts have. I hope the Axanar script proves me wrong.
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Old February 18 2014, 06:00 AM   #336
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

I want to clarify the law of insanity and of murder.

If I am insane, and I pick up a knife and I know it's a knife, and I use it to kill somebody and I know I am killing somebody, that's not the basis of an insanity defense.

If I am insane, and I pick up what I think is a pen (but it's a knife) and I use it to write on some paper, pressing really hard because the ink isn't working (but the paper is somebody major artery to their brain in reality)... that's an insanity which would be a defense.

Hollywood often portrays the former as being the basis of an insanity defense, but Hollywood is wrong.

In Florida, on the other hand, if the first person believed themselves in fear of their life, even if the person they killed was unarmed and never touched them, THAT'S a defense. Unlike traditional common law states, they do not have to try to retreat. They can stand their ground and kill the person. And apparently, that's OK.

The law of what exactly murder is and what justified homicide is differs greatly from place to place.

An extreme but real example: In 1200 years of Roman history, no husband was ever tried for the murder of his wife or child because ... a husband had a RIGHT to kill his wife or his children under Roman law. Therefore, if he did so, it was not murder.
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Old February 18 2014, 07:33 AM   #337
Loken
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

BRIDGE CONCEPTS

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Old February 18 2014, 07:33 AM   #338
Loken
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
Loken wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
For crying out loud, the guy committed genocide. I just don't see any way to rationalize putting the guy back in command of a starship after something like that.
Wrong. Garth didn't commit Genocide, he attempted it but was stopped by his crew. (Watch Whom Gods Destroy starting at minute 18.)
Is that supposed to make it less terrible a crime? The fact that others stopped him?

No that is supposed to point out that you are wrong. Your failure to own up to your error and deflect it is not surprising.
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Old February 18 2014, 07:39 AM   #339
Loken
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

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Old February 18 2014, 07:40 AM   #340
Loken
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Been cutting our first Kickstarter Video.

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Old February 18 2014, 08:51 AM   #341
doubleohfive
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Loken wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
Loken wrote: View Post

Wrong. Garth didn't commit Genocide, he attempted it but was stopped by his crew. (Watch Whom Gods Destroy starting at minute 18.)
Is that supposed to make it less terrible a crime? The fact that others stopped him?

No that is supposed to point out that you are wrong. Your failure to own up to your error and deflect it is not surprising.
Oh I think between the two of us, Alec, I've more than proven that I'm able to "own up" to my errors in our interactions. Can you say the same?

On topic: So what if I "deflect" your logic? I raised a salient point based on an opinion - that a madman like Garth, in my view, would absolutely NOT be shuffled back in to Starfleet with a full commission.

Someone mentioned Picard and his assimilation by the Borg. That's a close call. The difference being that Picard was taken by force and mutilated by the Borg. It wasn't some random madness that made him clue the Borg in on destroying 40 starships and killing 11,000 people. It was all against his will. And we saw the trauma it caused him throughout (the tear, his last shred of humanity; and his revelation "Sleep, Data" to help Riker stop them) as well as afterward when he went home to France.

I believe Picard being put back in command after the fleet had been devastated a lot more than I'd buy Garth being given a crew and a ship after what he pulled. If Whom Gods Destroy is to be taken at face value, then it's a fair bet just about everyone in Starfleet knows about him and what happened to him -- what crew would want to serve under that guy? Look at what happened to Ro and how people treated her when she first showed up.

So, Alec: more accurately: Yes, you're right - Garth does NOT commit genocide.

But he did attempt it. And by "attempt" we can further assume that he probably killed a whole bunch of people. Like he killed Marta. Is her life any less valuable? Just because he was crazy? I'm not trying to suggest that insanity is the fault of the person afflicted by it, but rather that it cannot simply be excused away.

Garth attempted genocide. There's no getting around it. You know who else attempted genocide but failed? Adolf Hitler. Are you going to tell me that he should be excused because he was crazy? Or because he failed?

Last edited by doubleohfive; February 18 2014 at 07:04 PM.
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Old February 18 2014, 10:09 AM   #342
USS Intrepid
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

The clear implication at the end of Whom Gods Destroy (at least to me) is that Garth is restored to his former self (or at least on his way to being so). I don't think it's a huge stretch to think he'd be reinstated in some capacity if he is given a clean bill of health.

None of which, as far as I'm aware, has anything to do with the plot of Axanar, which is set years before those events.

So, apart from the fact that there's a bit of bad blood between a few of you here, is there really any point to this line of discussion, or are we all going to have to sit through another pointless argument over nothing?

Sorry to be blunt, but I'm having a crappy week, and these little grudge matches are getting old.
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Old February 18 2014, 12:31 PM   #343
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Loken wrote: View Post
Been cutting our first Kickstarter Video.

Please tell me that's a HD projector...
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Old February 18 2014, 05:43 PM   #344
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Loken wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
Loken wrote: View Post

Wrong. Garth didn't commit Genocide, he attempted it but was stopped by his crew. (Watch Whom Gods Destroy starting at minute 18.)
Is that supposed to make it less terrible a crime? The fact that others stopped him?

No that is supposed to point out that you are wrong. Your failure to own up to your error and deflect it is not surprising.
Loken:

The Moderation Team has said this before: not everybody's opinion on things constitutes an "attack" simply because it is a contrary position to yours. People might simply be expressing some alternative opinion. Despite whatever topic is being discussed, it's our sense that you are usually the first person to initiate some kind of ad hominem attack.


"I think Garth is totally rehabilitatable."

"Interesting. I think he is actually beyond full rehabilitation."

"How dare you attack me and my position like that--although I've come to expect such attacks from you!"

Please remember the TrekBBS rule:

"Flames

"Obviously, you cannot insult other people. You may disagree with someone's opinion, but you may not attack the person themselves for posting that opinion. Don't respond to a flame with a flame. You cannot flame people and then claim to have been just defending yourself. If you have a complaint, notify a moderator rather than responding yourself."

Less acrimony over other people's simple diversity of opinions, please.
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Old February 18 2014, 06:08 PM   #345
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Re: Star Trek: Axanar

Could we please get back on topic again?
Arguing over a make-believe crime on a TV show in light of real-life criminal law and based on what people read into an episode decades ago just serves as a distraction and doesn't really benefit the project.

@Topic: I really hope these modifications will be stored somewhere after use. I'm sure the Phase II team could also find good uses for fitting parts that allowed them to let their bridge double as various older "ships of the week".
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