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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 17 2012, 11:48 PM   #91
Set Harth
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

UFO wrote:
there wouldn't be any point in him saying anything if he thought his alternative "scientific" explanation had so low a probability that he had to resort to fate or mysticism etc.
He doesn't.

UFO wrote:
apart from your redefinition of "very high" to mean "low"
It's a question of scale. Compared to your impression of it, the number in question may in fact be "very high".

UFO wrote:
And of course the only way to avoid the relentless feeling that things are only happening because the writers need it to, is to suppose some form of destiny.
This is self-fulfilling circular logic and of little value. It's basically an attempt to end run around the fact that the above destiny theory is not actually presented in the film.

UFO wrote:
your quote of Oric is his attempt to make parts of the film look less "ridiculous"
Sure it is.

UFO wrote:
it appears I speak for the writers!
Nice one.

UFO wrote:
We are talking about the likelihood of all the original crew getting together almost a decade before they did in the prime timeline (and in particular event like the chances of Spock Prime meeting Krik and Scotty on DV) despite significant disruption.
This likelihood is potentially not as small as you seem to think it must be.

UFO wrote:
Thanks for quoting me out of context.
Nobody quoted you out of context. You claimed a line was in the film, but it wasn't in the film. Same context.
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Last edited by Set Harth; October 18 2012 at 01:07 AM.
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Old October 18 2012, 04:36 AM   #92
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Why would simple Earth Plantation/Vineyard owners (Picards Parents) stop everything they were doing and change their plans because Vulcan was destroyed? It would have nothing to do with them, they weren't Starfleet, they have a Plantation/Vineyard on Earth. Did everyone in California stop everything they were doing and change all their plans and their whole life because of Hurricaine of Katrina devastating New Orleans? No. Sure some ran straight off to New Orleans to help out, but, most just went on about their business. The destruction of Vulcan would be nothing more than a passing thought, if that, for a Plantation/Vineyard owner
While the Picard vineyard and Picard family may not have been directly affected by the destruction of Vulcan, certainly an attack from a Romulan mining vessel on Earth, even in San Francisco thousands of miles from Chateau Picard, would have been a sufficient event to cause a number of butterfly effects to spring up.

What I want to know is -- what happens if NuKirk slingshots the NuEnterprise back to 1969 and beams over to the TOS Enterprise just before they slingshot back to the 23rd century?

Or what if NuChekov beams Captain Christopher out of his plane before the TOS Enterprise does? .. Or say NuEnterprise slingshots around the sun and arrives at April 5, 2063 and NuKirk beams to the E-E before they head back to the 24th century?

Can he jump timelines?

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Old October 18 2012, 08:56 AM   #93
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

Set Harth wrote: View Post
UFO wrote:
there wouldn't be any point in him saying anything if he thought his alternative "scientific" explanation had so low a probability that he had to resort to fate or mysticism etc.
He doesn't.
Orci appears to believe otherwise, thus his remarks.

UFO wrote:
apart from your redefinition of "very high" to mean "low"
It's a question of scale. Compared to your impression of it, the number in question may in fact be "very high".
There is no "scale" involved and any numbers don't alter the fact that he is saying straight-out that the "probability assigned to such an event [the crew coming together etc] is very high in the multiverse". There is no way to scale that back. There is no way to avoid the fact that he is relying on the sheer number of universes available to make a low probability event seem almost inevitable. And that might be true if he had a multiverse to choose from, but he doesn't.

This is self-fulfilling circular logic and of little value. It's basically an attempt to end run around the fact that the above destiny theory is not actually presented in the film.
It’s a reasonable interpretation. Alternatively we could just go back to calling it extremely unlikely if you prefer, but that doesn't seem any better. As I said, it was Spock Prime who raised the spectre of "Destiny" and even Orci was taking about "fate" so how can I be wrong to do so?

Sure it is.
Ok, less "fateful". Of course that is just another way of making it seem "more plusable", shall we say? Assuming you think fate is plausible, which doesn't appear to be the case.

This likelihood is potentially not as small as you seem to think it must be.
Whatever gets you through the night.

Nobody quoted you out of context. You claimed a line was in the film, but it wasn't in the film. Same context.
I happen to think the "context" softens the impression of my statement. But I'm just glad I didn't put any money on it!


KingDaniel wrote: View Post
In real life, if such things as time travel were possible? Probably not. But in Star Trek's world, yes. ...
I'm afraid my response to your comments will have to be: What Ryan8bit said.

Though I do feel there is a difference between setting up an unlikely situation then proceeding reasonably from there and letting implausibility unfold on screen.
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Old October 18 2012, 11:30 AM   #94
F. King Daniel
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

But why would fate make sure Kirk and his TOS season 2+ crew united, and not the "proper" crew of Pike or even Kirk's "Where No Man..." crew? And why would fate allow Amanda and planet Vulcan to die?

Besides, we're working with incomplete information, comparing 2258 in one timeline with 2365-66 in another. By the time this movie trilogy is over, the crew may not be intact. They may have united early just for members to die or move on prior to 2265-66. McCoy may die and Dr. Dehner (Alice Eve, just speculating) may take his place.

Then again, after having read the recent (and utterly fantastic) Voyager novel The Eternal Tide, where...

...maybe the universe is ensuring it's own survival by uniting Kirk's crew at all costs. Maybe it's to stop the space amoeba in a few years? The multiverse summons it's antibodies!
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Old October 18 2012, 03:54 PM   #95
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

KingDaniel wrote: View Post
But why would fate make sure Kirk and his TOS season 2+ crew united, and not the "proper" crew of Pike or even Kirk's "Where No Man..." crew? And why would fate allow Amanda and planet Vulcan to die?
You're asking about fate like it's a reasonable thing. The simple answer is that those things were not fated to happen. The uniting of the cast of season 2 in all of their same positions in a different time despite the seeming improbability is fate.

When such great coincidences occur, that's when people start to question if there's something more to it. You can either assume that there's some sort of in-universe mumbo jumbo to explain it (like Orci's poor attempt), or you can just accept that it happened that way because the writers wanted it to happen that way without any concern about if it makes sense. Neither of those are very palatable options for me.

maybe the universe is ensuring it's own survival by uniting Kirk's crew at all costs.
Again, that would be fate. I never really felt like Kirk or Picard or anyone on Star Trek were the only ones who could save the day in specific circumstances.
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Old October 19 2012, 12:15 AM   #96
Set Harth
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

UFO wrote:
As I said, it was Spock Prime who raised the spectre of "Destiny" and even Orci was taking about "fate" so how can I be wrong to do so?
Orci said "some may mistake it for fate". That's how. Also, Spock didn't present your idea of what "destiny" means in the film.
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Old October 19 2012, 02:42 AM   #97
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

He does mention it in a little film UFO might have heard of though:

The Wrath of Khan wrote:
SPOCK: I would not remind you of that which you know so well. If I may be so bold, it was a mistake for you to accept promotion. Commanding a starship is your first best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material.
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Old October 19 2012, 03:08 AM   #98
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
He does mention it in a little film UFO might have heard of though:

The Wrath of Khan wrote:
SPOCK: I would not remind you of that which you know so well. If I may be so bold, it was a mistake for you to accept promotion. Commanding a starship is your first best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material.
Yes. But BEST destiny implies other possibilities - so while it is a valid use of the word destiny, it isn't the same use as the one that implies predestination. Which is what we're really talking about here, I think.
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Old October 19 2012, 03:14 AM   #99
Geoff Peterson
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Zombie Cheerleader wrote: View Post
He does mention it in a little film UFO might have heard of though:

The Wrath of Khan wrote:
SPOCK: I would not remind you of that which you know so well. If I may be so bold, it was a mistake for you to accept promotion. Commanding a starship is your first best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material.
Yes. But BEST destiny implies other possibilities - so while it is a valid use of the word destiny, it isn't the same use as the one that implies predestination. Which is what we're really talking about here, I think.
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Old October 19 2012, 05:04 AM   #100
M'Sharak
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

Just ran across this, from an old Q&A session:
BobOrci wrote:
([addressed] to no specific [TrekMovie] poster)

For all those decrying fate, there is actually a quantum mechanical basis for the “fate function” in this film that we have discussed previously. In a multiverse where, as Data once said “anything that can happen, does happen, in a parallel universe…” there is a probability (a number) associated with each possible configuration. Those events that are most probable are theorized to occur more often in more similar universes. Thus, the idea that Kirk and Spock and Bones come together is merely an indication that the probability assigned to such an event is very high in the multiverse. Some may mistake this for blind fate.
It seemed as if it might fit in here somewhere, but feel free to disregard if it doesn't.
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Old October 19 2012, 03:32 PM   #101
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

M'Sharak wrote: View Post
It seemed as if it might fit in here somewhere
Maybe like here.
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Old October 19 2012, 05:40 PM   #102
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

Ha. So it does.
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Old October 19 2012, 09:35 PM   #103
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

Temis the Friendly Ghost wrote: View Post
Abrams can point the camera anyplace he chooses, and with infinite parallel realities from which to choose, any sequence of events a screenwriter can think of will be happening somewhere, for him to film.
Also, Abrams can point the camera anyplace he chooses and there is a 100% probability he'll catch lens flare.
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Old October 20 2012, 03:18 AM   #104
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

los2188 wrote: View Post
I was just curious...who and how would you bring a TNG character into the JJ-verse Trek for a one time cameo or role. I'm racking my head to figure out how and why, and the only thing I could come up with is after the explosion of the Scimitar, Data's head has been floating around in space for years, and when Spock creates the red matter and all, somehow Data's head goes into the black hole. It's stupid, I know but I'm trying my best to see how we could get a TNG character in new Trek outside of playing someone's distant relative, i.e. Colonel Worf.
Totally! Data and that's a great explanation. Of all the TNG characters, Data is probably the most iconic.
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Old October 20 2012, 10:32 AM   #105
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Re: TNG Characters in the JJ-Verse

Since the timelines were supposed to be one and the same until the Narada's arrival on the day of Kirk's birth, and after the branching they share the common past still, Data's head is already in the alternate reality, under San Fransisco where it's been since "Time's Arrow"
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