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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old October 1 2012, 09:22 PM   #76
Nightdiamond
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Re: Religion & DS9

Especially when you consider that they did it for themselves, for some strange purpose that happens millions of miles away.

They honestly don't care about humanoids, Bajorans or whatever, in the purest sense of the term.

"Corporeal matters do not concern us" = they don't care. Which brings up the issue (yet again) of the Bajorans possibly wasting their time worshiping beings that are barely aware of them.

You can bring up the Orbs, but they may have been simple information gathering devices-- Quark was a greedy S.O.B and he had an Orb experience.

Other people who wanted to obtain information or enlightenment got nothing.

It's nice to know that your gods exist, but whether they care about you is whole different thing.

It's like the UFO debate; even if we can prove they exist, then the questions is; so what, how does that make my life any better?
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Old October 2 2012, 01:01 AM   #77
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Religion & DS9

teacock wrote: View Post
They are jerks, kidnapping Sarah to have sex against her will for the purpose of breeding.

How would the Bajorans retcon this into being something grand.. it would be like the holy spirit impregnates unwed teenager deal. At least Mary got two millennia of veneration for her trouble. Sarah had to flee to Australia (typical) and then got killed off. They did not care about their precious vessel one bit, she had all the value of a jam jar.
And if you read the actual dialogue between Mary and the angel in the Bible, Mary is actually asked and gives clear consent of her own will, before the Holy Spirit impregnates her. If the writers of DS9 meant to parallel that, then they clearly forgot that verrrry important part of the equation. It indeed makes the Prophets either amoral in the literal sense or actually having an evil streak.
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Old October 2 2012, 05:36 AM   #78
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Re: Religion & DS9

teacock wrote: View Post
They are jerks, kidnapping Sarah to have sex against her will for the purpose of breeding.

How would the Bajorans retcon this into being something grand.. it would be like the holy spirit impregnates unwed teenager deal. At least Mary got two millennia of veneration for her trouble. Sarah had to flee to Australia (typical) and then got killed off. They did not care about their precious vessel one bit, she had all the value of a jam jar.
I'm not arguing the morality of what they did, just the why. I don't even know if morality as we understand it applies to such beings - Blue and Orange morality would seem to apply to them.

But yes, the Prophets were jerks to Sarah.
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Old October 2 2012, 06:08 AM   #79
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Re: Religion & DS9

Sarah came in for the same reason the Borg Queen came in... someone decided it was a good idea to give the Prophets a single face and voice. Naturally the same failings of this idea apply too.
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Old October 3 2012, 12:41 PM   #80
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Re: Religion & DS9

Just reminded me how much DS9 disappointed in season 6-7 once they went too far with the loopy Sisko's mum was possessed by a prophet nonsense, never mind the ridiculous pah-wraith fire cave stuff.

Ugh.
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Old October 3 2012, 06:05 PM   #81
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Re: Religion & DS9

teacock wrote: View Post
Yes but why? Why does it have to be her and not the woman he did marry?
Because Ben Sisko as we know him wouldn't exist. Half his DNA came from Sarah so if his father fathered him with a different woman Sisko's DNA would be different and maybe he would be a slightly different person and thus not able to become the Emmisary.
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Old October 3 2012, 08:01 PM   #82
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Re: Religion & DS9

teacock wrote: View Post
Yes but why? Why does it have to be her and not the woman he did marry?

The prophets have that retarded cylon thing going on where they just make people do stuff with no seeming understanding of the effect it has.
I dunno, looking at the bigger picture and it seems the Prophets were messing with Sisko all along. Firstly they spew out that claptrap about having no clue about linear time, yet one of their brethren went down to Earth to possess a human woman so just she could mate with Joseph Sisko. I think the Prophets are rather familiar with linear time but they forced Sisko (in his first face-to-face encounter with them) to explain to them what linear time is. Really it was a clever way of getting Sisko more used to the Prophet's way of seeing time and the universe.

With each year the Prophets gradually moulded Sisko into becoming their Emissary. It makes sense because if the Prophets had told Sisko EVERYTHING in one go, it would probably have been a disaster giving Sisko's emotional state and the way he still grieved for his wife at the time.

The funny thing is that the Bajorans view the Prophets as gods, but the Prophets don't seem to view themselves as omnipotent. So this whole Prophets vs Pah Wraiths is not some war of the gods but war between two non-linear races who have two very different ideologies. The Prophets seem content to sit in their realm and not use their powers to change the universe (except for the defence of Bajor), whilst the Pah Wraiths want to abuse such powers and destroy all life that is inferior to them.

The bottom line is that all this mythology stems from the Bajorans, in other words the Bajorans made a faith out of the Prophets and not the Prophets commanding the Bajorans to worship them. The Prophets say they are of Bajor which must mean they guide and protect the Bajorans, but not to the point where say the Prophets would say erase the Cardassians out of the timeline to ensure Bajor was never occupied, because that would be a gross abuse of the Prophet's power. Hence the Prophets send down orbs and speak directly to a few Bajorans who go on to write scarred scriptures.

I guess the Prophets did all of this because Bajor is imprisoning the Prophet's most dangerous foes in those Fire Caves, which is quite a risk on Bajor's part; something the Bajorans had no say in by the looks of things. So the Prophets decide to look out for the Bajorans and ensure those nasty Pah Wraiths don't break free and destroy Bajor. Though the Prophets were definitely off the ball when that Keiko Pah Wraith almost snuffed them out. Unless the Prophets foresaw it all so presumed nothing would happen as their foes are still bound to linear time, thus O'Brien double-crossing the Keiko Pah Wraith was destined to happen.

So despite all the mystery, there is a certain logic to this... The Prophets appear to know exactly what they're doing and they have this grand plan in motion...
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Old October 3 2012, 11:05 PM   #83
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Re: Religion & DS9

My problem with it was, if they left it with a war between two nonlinear beings with different ideologies, it would have been ok.

To me, the whole 'penance' for helping Sisko was fascinating, and the Pah Wraith battle on DS9 was fascinating.

But then they added Dukat being the Bajoran antichrist vs Sisko the Bajoran messiah, and it became like a comic book of sorts.

They added the Good vs Evil- Blue vs Red concept to it, and turned it into a super religious analogy, Bajoran Style.

Ancient scrolls with weird writing that catch on fire, weird chants, ancient fire caves, OMG, too much


I always wondered why it is believed Sisko was half prophet, when the story says the Prophet only possessed his mother so she could give birth to Sisko.

All that did was ensure a human male would be born, not that he would have qualities of a Prophet.
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