RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,549
Posts: 5,513,526
Members: 25,144
Currently online: 587
Newest member: A.E.Andres

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Brinkmanship.
Outstanding 25 27.17%
Above Average 45 48.91%
Average 16 17.39%
Below Average 4 4.35%
Poor 2 2.17%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 5 2012, 02:30 AM   #106
rfmcdpei
Captain
 
rfmcdpei's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
View rfmcdpei's Twitter Profile
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
[H]owever shabbily the Akaar and Bacco treated the Venettans, the fact remains that they chose to turn their backs on the UFP and to allow a hostile power to place technology that could be used as a bioweapon on the UFP border. The Venettans truly did start it, and while we may admire their extreme openness, their utter refusal to accept the common realities of espionage and manipulation in international relations stands out as a form of ethnocentrism to me (especially when they condemn the Federation for espionage and refuse to acknowledge the possibility that the Tzenkethi do the same or worse). They did take threatening action towards the Federation, and there's no way around that.
Last night I was chatting with a friend about science-fiction novels and universes. We got around to talking about Banks' Culture (you know there's a new one out) and the peculiar social mechanics of societies with post-scarcity economies and non-hierarchical polities. In the case of the Culture, the combination of near-infinite plenty, an effective lack of agencies capable of coercing Culture citizens, and a disinterest in doing so, sees bits of the Culture splinter off whenever something momentous happens. A faction split off from the Culture when the majority chose to fight the war with the Idirans, for instance.

The Venette Convention seems to be a civilization roughly on the same level as the Federation, i.e. an emergent post-scarcity society. The Venette Convention is definitely a non-hierarchical society. How, then, is the Venette Convention able to function as a coherent state-like entity without different subpopulations fragmenting off? There's cultural power, pressures towards conformity in an apparently very old and stable culture, but can that last indefinitely?
rfmcdpei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5 2012, 06:12 AM   #107
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

MatthiasRussell wrote: View Post
Shouldn't the fact that the negotiator was representing the Cardassian government show that she was a participant in a democratic republic?
It demonstrates that she is a participant in the democratic process, but not that she is in favor of democracy. Weimar Germany had a number of powerful political figures in its Parliament and administrations who did not actually favor democracy and wanted to bring back the imperial autocracy that Germany had held under the Kaiser -- which was part of how Hitler came to power.

It would be perfectly plausible for the book to depict anti-democratic factions within the new Cardassian government as having enough power to install one of their own as lead Cardassian negotiator.

Pointing out that she is a democrat seems partly irrellevant and partly judgemental of other political persuasions.
It is not irrelevant, because it would not have been implausible for an anti-democrat to be appointed to the position. It is judgmental of Cardassian politics, yes. After two major wars started by Cardassian militarism, the Federation has every right to be judgmental of the militaristic faction within the Cardassian power elite and to openly favor Cardassian democrats.

Plus, as I said, Romulans are democrats
Actually, up until Rough Beasts of Empire, we had no idea by which members of the Romulan Senate were selected. Rough Beasts established that the Senate is comprised of representatives from the Romulan aristocracy, the Hundred families, whose clans appoint one of their own as Senator.

Meanwhile, both the novels and the canon have established the existence of a Romulan monarchy. The Emperor or Empress usually ruled as a ceremonial head of state, with the Praetor as the head of government with real power. The Romulan throne has fallen vacant since the assassination of Shiarkeik, but there's been no indication that the Monarchy has been formally abolished.

So, no, the Romulan Star Empire is neither a democracy nor a republic.

and Klingons are militant.
Yes -- but the Klingon Empire have been a great deal less aggressive to the Federation in the past half-century than the Cardassian Union.

You might recall that in TOS's "Errand of Mercy," Kirk cited Federation democracy as a reason the UFP was better than the Empire. So when the Federation and the Empire were in a similar state of hostilities the prior century, Federates were just as likely to look down upon Klingon feudalism as Cardassian autocracy.

So does one form of government really incline a people to be friendlier with the UFP?
The Federation obviously sees the fledging Cardassian democracy movement as friendlier than the remnants of the old Central Command, yes. Probably has to do with that Central Command doing things like starting major wars.

They may be democratic, but they are still Cardassians. A culture doesn't change in a few years time.
But Cardassian culture has had democracy in the past, and has had an underground movement for democratic reform for a long time. Cardassians are perhaps the least homogenous of all Star Trek cultures.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5 2012, 07:40 PM   #108
flandry84
Captain
 
flandry84's Avatar
 
Location: Sunshine cottage,Lollipop lane,Latveria
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

/\Indeed,it is my understanding that rule by the military junta(central command)had only been a relatively recent development on Cardassia.Remember Madred telling Picard about the privations of Cardassian society before the guls took power.
__________________
Bah!
flandry84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 6 2012, 08:19 PM   #109
rfmcdpei
Captain
 
rfmcdpei's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
View rfmcdpei's Twitter Profile
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
Actually, up until Rough Beasts of Empire, we had no idea by which members of the Romulan Senate were selected. Rough Beasts established that the Senate is comprised of representatives from the Romulan aristocracy, the Hundred families, whose clans appoint one of their own as Senator.

Meanwhile, both the novels and the canon have established the existence of a Romulan monarchy. The Emperor or Empress usually ruled as a ceremonial head of state, with the Praetor as the head of government with real power. The Romulan throne has fallen vacant since the assassination of Shiarkeik, but there's been no indication that the Monarchy has been formally abolished.

So, no, the Romulan Star Empire is neither a democracy nor a republic.
One problem is that Pardek is stated in "Unification" as representing the Krocton Segment, a territory on Romulus. He's described as a "man of the people" who carries on a successful dialogue with the residents of the Krocton Segment.

At the very least, there were seats representing territories in the old Senate, before it was restored by Tal'Aura.
rfmcdpei is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2012, 09:15 PM   #110
JWolf
Commodore
 
JWolf's Avatar
 
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Una McCormack wrote: View Post
I'm convinced spell check is in the hands of some particularly mischievous gremlins. Rivaled only by the autocorrect pixies.
The autocorrect pixies live in iOS. Try typing unknown words with an iPhone or iPad and see what you end up with.
__________________
Jon
JWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 7 2012, 09:22 PM   #111
JWolf
Commodore
 
JWolf's Avatar
 
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Una McCormack wrote: View Post
Is that really in the Kindle edition? Crumbs. Not what I wrote and not in my paperback. And yet I kind of like it...

Thank you to everyone who has taken time to post their thoughts about the book: I've been really enjoying reading all the interesting discussion. I wish I had time at the moment to respond in depth, but term has just started and I'm run off my feet.
Here is the line in chapter 12 from the ePub edition...



Is that actually correct and if not, what is the correct wording?

The cover I feel is actually better in greyscale then with the blue ting. I noticed this when I first saw the cover on my 650. Sometimes not having a color screen is a good thing.
__________________
Jon
JWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2012, 04:32 AM   #112
Astraea
Commander
 
Astraea's Avatar
 
Location: Buried under a pile of work.
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JWolf wrote:
Here is the line in chapter 12 from the ePub edition...



Is that actually correct and if not, what is the correct wording?

The cover I feel is actually better in greyscale then with the blue ting. I noticed this when I first saw the cover on my 650. Sometimes not having a color screen is a good thing.
Pretty sure that it was clarified upthread that the quote is correct; it's just that whoever transcribed the quote onto this thread had accidentally typed "Am I overeating?" instead of "Am I overreacting?" at the end of the quote, prompting the "Is that what they printed? Oh crumbs" remark.
__________________
Avatar credit: wicked_visions on livejournal.

Last edited by Astraea; October 8 2012 at 04:33 AM. Reason: Blasted HTML quote tagging
Astraea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2012, 07:27 AM   #113
JRoss
Fleet Captain
 
JRoss's Avatar
 
Location: Stain'd-by-the-Sea
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Conflicted about this one. Out of 10:

Writing style: 2, bordered on purple prose at several points. There was whimsy, yes, but there were a few paragraphs where it felt like the writing was getting way from the author. I also felt that the coded messages and logs at the beginning of each chapter got a bit out of hand, especially when many of them actually had nothing to say.

Story: 4, a lot of things didn't make sense, such as how the Cardassian operative could simply tell by looking that her boss was an altered human. I was hoping that it would turn out that the scenes on Ab-Tzenketh were flashbacks and that the human operative would turn out to have been Peter Alden.

Characters: 7, almost an eight except that some characters come off completely different than they usually do, especially Akaar. That said, Beverly, Jean-Luc and Ezri get some fantastic lines. Ilka is a nice new character who I quite enjoyed.

Overall: 4
__________________
Thunderegg Productions, a new indie publisher of RPG supplements
JRoss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2012, 03:12 PM   #114
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JRoss wrote: View Post
Story: 4, a lot of things didn't make sense, such as how the Cardassian operative could simply tell by looking that her boss was an altered human.
I think that scene was very clear. Efheny could tell he wasn't a Tzenkethi because his body language did not conform to Tzenkethi norms.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2012, 03:26 PM   #115
MatthiasRussell
Fleet Captain
 
MatthiasRussell's Avatar
 
Location: Seattle
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^ At first, I was thinking, "If the Cardassian operative can see the differences in her boss, why can't anyone else? But then later you find out that everyone DID see the difference. I guess they didn't suspect alien infiltration at that level, especially since Tzenkethi at that caste level don't know that there are aliens. Still, I imagine, during the operative's reconditioning and the autopsy of the human, their true nature will be revealed.
__________________
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers?"
MatthiasRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 8 2012, 04:17 PM   #116
trash80
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: UK
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Above Average, very good book which made me care about the "guest stars" like all good Trek books should. I find the Tzenkethi society fascinating, in some ways its a bit like the Dominion in that people are genetically engineered to be perfect for a certain role though.
trash80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2012, 02:58 PM   #117
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Above average.

Liked the looks we got at the Tzenkethi, the Venetans and I liked Crusher's role in the book.

Continue to dislike Ezri Dax. She's an off-putting know-it-all.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2012, 06:54 PM   #118
Paris
Commodore
 
Paris's Avatar
 
Location: In the future's past
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Just finished. The first bit didn't keep me as interested as the last 100 pages or so. I like that Crusher got some play, but I would have liked more with Worf and at least to have seen Chen and Choudhry (sp?). I like Una's style, and hope to see her contribute more often. 7/10
Paris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2012, 08:00 PM   #119
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Misco wrote: View Post
I did enjoy the fact that 'high level' meetings were held quite openly in public spaces
If the Venetans are serious about interacting with other spacefaring nations in the long-term, it would be interesting to see them realize how their fully open society could in itself be a means of destabilizing foreign representatives. Undermining the nerve of political opponents would be quite easy, if they learned to understand themselves in that way, to see their remarkably honest and inclusive ways as a "weapon". It might allow them to reconcile their current and long-standing sense of identity with the shocking realization (that surely must now be dawning on them) that they can't trust most outsiders to act like Venetans. Perhaps they can regain a sense of stability if they learn to find security and comfort in the fact that they're playing by different rules than everyone else, and that this gives them the advantage - on their home turf at least - if they can just learn to grasp the shape of the board and see things in terms of advantage and disadvantage. It would be a difficult transition, I'd imagine, but perhaps a more acceptable one than the alternatives, e.g. becoming more manipulative themselves. They don't have to surrender who they are, they can continue playing by different rules, so long as they come to understand the shape of the game. They might realize they already have the means to play this game of politics and prosper in it, without having to become something distasteful to their sensibilities.

After all, through no intention of the Venetans, the Federation, Ferengi and Cardassian delegations were reduced to a game of "where's my chair?" as soon as they entered the meeting space, causing quiet uncertainty and minor distress . (That was rather amusing to me, by the way - the Venetans being set up as an "elevated" society of noble, cultured beings with a highly orderly society, only for our first look at them to be something that throws the protagonists - and the reader - off balance by suggesting the sort of cheerful chaos that doesn't seem to befit noble statesmen and "space elf" societies). If the Venetans ever realize that they throw people off balance simply be being who they are, then they might come to see that they have choices other than "stick your head in the sand" or "betray yourselves by acting distastefully". Hmmm. I hope we do see the Venetans again. They're slow to change and insular, and might as likely just fold back in and become isolationist than actually work through their recent upsets toward a new set of assumptions, but I think there's great potential in them....
And yet the Tzenkethi seemed to be playing them like a fiddle.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 9 2012, 08:45 PM   #120
Deranged Nasat
Vice Admiral
 
Deranged Nasat's Avatar
 
Location: Ch'Rihan.
Re: TP: Brinkmanship by Una McCormack Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
And yet the Tzenkethi seemed to be playing them like a fiddle.
Well, that's because they were. Like I said, the Venetans need to understand how everyone else is playing the game before they can be even the slightest bit effective at it themselves. But if they can learn that other cultures aren't doing things the Venetan way, I can see possibilities for them other than "cave in" or "run away".
__________________
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away.
Deranged Nasat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
reviewpoll_v1

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:45 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.