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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 16 2012, 07:44 AM   #31
DonIago
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

You're comparing three modern BoPs attacking an Enterprise that has to stay in one place (it's protecting the E-C) to one non-modern BoP attacking an Enterprise that has options in terms of maneuverability.

Additionally I believe the BoPs in "Yesterday's Enterprise" are considered the larger class, while I'm pretty sure the BoP in Generations is not meant to be that class.

In any case, the E-D could have rotated shield frequencies (randomly), it could have actually used all of its weapon systems, it could have gotten the hell out of orbit. The ship withstood prolonged attack by a Borg cube, but one old BoP takes it out? I don't buy it.
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Old September 16 2012, 07:46 AM   #32
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

Yeah once shields are out of the picture, it doesn't matter what the matchup is,really... It's just another structure that can be destroyed with a few torpedoes. Of course there are exceptions, like a borg cube or something, but I think a galaxy class without shields is just as vulnerable as anything else.

Of course, it's still stupid for riker or geordi or data not to try and just change shield frequency.... again, bad writing.
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Old September 16 2012, 09:13 AM   #33
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

It was only distracting in the sense that it was the climactic shot in the sequence, so that at the moment where you should be going YEAH! some members of the audience are going "Oh, I remember that shot." Otherwise it's no more distracting than all the reused drydock stuff in TWOK.
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Last edited by Maurice; September 17 2012 at 06:23 AM. Reason: fixed typo
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Old September 16 2012, 05:44 PM   #34
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

I actually didn't mind the recycle of the Bird of Prey explosion that much. How many angles do we need to see a ship blowing up from after all?

What annoyed me about the battle was their apparent need to technobabble a solution. Personally I thought it would be more exciting to see the Enterprise fight it's way out of this conventionally rather than do the whatever make them cloak thing. You only saw them fire at the Bird of Prey once before they turn around and start running away.

One assumes that the Bird of Prey is probably faster at sublight speeds so that seems a strategy doomed to failure. If they really wanted to reduce the BoP's rate of fire, they should have just flown Enterprise right at the BoP. It's have to turn aside to avoid being hit, and while it's doing so and remanuvering into another firing postion, it's not shooting at the E-D since it has no rear or side weaponry. The E-D could be pummeling it non-stop with phaser fire to eventually wear it down.
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Old September 16 2012, 07:54 PM   #35
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Yeah once shields are out of the picture, it doesn't matter what the matchup is,really... It's just another structure that can be destroyed with a few torpedoes. Of course there are exceptions, like a borg cube or something, but I think a galaxy class without shields is just as vulnerable as anything else.

Of course, it's still stupid for riker or geordi or data not to try and just change shield frequency.... again, bad writing.
I don't think it was bad writing,*so much as an intentional desire to A - satisfy the producers' desire to blow up the ship, and B - minimize the technobabble so general audiences had a prayer of keeping up.

It's really a shame too. The E-D looked fantastic on the big screen -- even the recycled footage from the series. I really don't understand why they needed a longer ship because of the 16:9 ratio. I would have been very happy to see the E-D in First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis.
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Old September 16 2012, 08:15 PM   #36
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

As good as ILM is, they seemed to have some limitations when it came to shooting the Enterprise models for Trek. Either that, or they just didn't like working with a model someone else designed.

In TMP, Doug Trumbull shot the Enterprise model in 50 different ways and made it look fantastic. From TWOK on, ILM was always complaining that the Enterprise model was near impossible to work with and could only be shot from 2 or 3 angles and look good. Similarly, the Enterprise-D was used on the television series for seven years and with good results, and looked good in Generations. Yet ILM claimed it wouldn't work for the big screen and that they needed a new model.

*shrug*
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Old September 16 2012, 08:33 PM   #37
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Yeah once shields are out of the picture, it doesn't matter what the matchup is,really... It's just another structure that can be destroyed with a few torpedoes. Of course there are exceptions, like a borg cube or something, but I think a galaxy class without shields is just as vulnerable as anything else.

Of course, it's still stupid for riker or geordi or data not to try and just change shield frequency.... again, bad writing.
I always figured they just didn't want to overwhelm the movie audiences with unnecessary technobabble. It stands to reason if they tried, Geordi would be the one doing this, or at the very least would be looking now and again at the monitor with the new frequency, and the Klingons would adjust their weapons appropriately.
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Old September 17 2012, 01:04 AM   #38
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

R. Star wrote: View Post
Mr_Homn wrote: View Post
Yeah once shields are out of the picture, it doesn't matter what the matchup is,really... It's just another structure that can be destroyed with a few torpedoes. Of course there are exceptions, like a borg cube or something, but I think a galaxy class without shields is just as vulnerable as anything else.

Of course, it's still stupid for riker or geordi or data not to try and just change shield frequency.... again, bad writing.
I always figured they just didn't want to overwhelm the movie audiences with unnecessary technobabble. It stands to reason if they tried, Geordi would be the one doing this, or at the very least would be looking now and again at the monitor with the new frequency, and the Klingons would adjust their weapons appropriately.

Perhaps, but they already set up the whole shield frequency thing earlier in the movie, so it wouldn't have been anything more for the audience to swallow. if anything, the plasma coil stuff was more uneccessary technobabble
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Old September 17 2012, 02:03 AM   #39
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

Dream wrote: View Post
EVERY TIME I watch Generations, I got so annoyed at the recycled footage of the BOP exploding taken from TUC. I always get taken out of the movie for a split second. Who else found it super annoying?

We got new space battle footage of BOPs in Redemption. Are you telling me GEN couldn't even afford something that a season finale was able to get? Were they just rushing it at this point like the rest of the movie?
I also find it very annoying and wonder how did they think they could sneak it by the fans?
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Old September 17 2012, 04:21 AM   #40
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

First understand that while it was the producers desire to get rid of the D (as it was specifically designed for the 4:3 frame ratio that isn't going to be the case for films). It wasn't just about the exterior, it was completely and totally evident that the entire of the ship as built couldn't be legitimately used to look could for theatrical use. You see how much they changed the lighting scheme and changed sets to try and make it more suited for the big screen, it was just a huge issue for them and looking into the future (and I say this as someone who really doesn't like the exterior of the E, interior love though).

As for the use of the Bof Prey its all about budget, everything costs significantly more money when working on film. From set design, and dressing, to actors, to lighting, to effects. It was tough lesson for the writers of TNG as they had really hoped to expand what they could do, then to find out a single phaser fight with Soren, Riker and Worf was more expensive then a full episodes fx on TV.

Remember Trek was after The Motion Picture as a budget film project, that only changed with the current Trek film.

Khan was made for 12 million and was able to get to that degree due to the heavy reuse of sets (thus the same bridge for for both ships), and slight redressing of any new sets, not to mention the huge amount of reused FX shots from whats was initially filmed for the Motion Picture.

Generations isn't the same beast, they had almost no reusable footage that was filmed for theatrical release (save the bird of Prey), they cleaned up a few brief shots from Encounter at Farpoint, but those shots were ever filmed for theatrical release.

The Vorcha like wise was a nice model for TV, but it would never hold up at the theatre.

So for a new ship that means they would have to build a new hero level model, those can run 1/4 a million and higher.

The movie was made on relative low budget, where the bulk of the budget they did have was for casting.

Now they could have gone outside ILM (but at the time, the one time they did they were grossly disappointed by the fx work).

Of course they could have killed stellar Cartography. Though I loved that scene and the FX for the most part. Certainly a thousand times better then the set used in Lessons. OR changed other aspects of the script to remove other FX elements (like crashing into the planet). But to do what they chose to do, they were going to have to trade off with reused shots, redressed sets, ect.
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Old September 17 2012, 06:17 AM   #41
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

I "understand" all of the above in the sense that I see how B follows from A, but I still think it's awful to reuse a "climax" explosion in a big-budget film. It was disappointing enough in the later episodes of DS9, but to do it in a movie? Ugh.
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Old September 17 2012, 06:26 AM   #42
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

It would have been cheaper to renovate the standing sets to work on film than to destroy them and build new ones, so that's one excuse that doesn't stand up.
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Old September 17 2012, 06:57 AM   #43
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

Maurice wrote: View Post
It was only distracting in the sense that it was the climactic shot in the sequence, so that at the moment where you should be going YEAH! some members of the audience are going "Oh, I remember that shot."
By this point in Generations, I just didn't care.
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Old September 17 2012, 08:00 AM   #44
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

They could have saved the money spent on those costumes they ended up not using..
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Old September 17 2012, 02:35 PM   #45
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Re: The recycled footage of BOP exploding in Generations

I noticed the recycled explosion, but I was still ing at the "full spread" the Enterprise fired which consisted of a single photon torpedo.

It's Star Trek, and endlessly recycled footage was the norm back then. IIRC, the Enterprise-B at warp near the start was actually a reused shot of the slightly-different USS Excelsior from STVI.
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