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Old December 23 2012, 02:41 AM   #61
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
post-ST2, future in-universe historians would label both variations "Constitution-class" regardless of the "Enterprise class" label of TWOK and "Starship class" of the bridge sign. I don't have an issue with that and gives it a real-world flavor.
I rationalize both of those bits like this:

- The Enterprise-class designation refers to the simulator itself, not the ship. Either the simulator was made to resemble the Enterprise, or it was intended for cadets who would one day be posted TO the Enterprise.

- "Starship class" clearly doesn't make sense (if taken literally, it would require the existence of a "USS Starship"). Clearly the sign should have said Starship TYPE, not Starship CLASS.
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Old December 23 2012, 02:54 AM   #62
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

I feel that this discussion is a good example of treading water. I would like to know if we have learned anything new.
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Old December 23 2012, 03:17 AM   #63
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Well, like I said: I don't know (or much care, really) what the in-universe import is of the "BASIC SPECIFICATIONS, CONSTITUTION CLASS STAR SHIP" comment in the "Space Seed" script. I only point out that Greg Jein didn't simply fabricate the Constitution-class notion out of whole cloth by himself. I think there's value to knowing that it was actually scripted. way back in 1966.
My question earlier was simply if the remaining "exploded wing diagram" had "Consitution class" written on it and do we have a close-up of it to see (even if it is a "behind the scenes" shot)?

If no, then the Enterprise at that time could've been any class since we have only one on-screen indicator from that time frame, the "Starship Class" bridge sign.

If yes, then it is a clear case of the TOS Enterprise being a "Constitution-class" as that goes along with the dialogue of the story.

In either case, I think Matt Jefferies would've been at least in on the whole "Constitution-class" idea since he was the one who created those diagrams according to Tilotta's article. Since the "Starship Class" sign showed up on screen first, it would appear that "Constitution Class" was thought up as the first season progressed but no one got around to changing the bridge sign for the next two seasons...

Just to be clear, I'm not debating where Jein got his idea from.
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Old December 23 2012, 03:50 AM   #64
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post

Just to be clear, I'm not debating where Jein got his idea from.
Ah. Where Greg Jein got his idea from was pretty much the sole intent of my post and is somewhat interesting stuff. But whether the Enterprise was "actually" a Starship class or a Star Ship class or an Enterprise class or a Constitution class or any other class is mostly fan wankery to me and isn't really objectively provable.
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Old December 23 2012, 11:51 AM   #65
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

^
A quick reread of this thread and I think that the "pet theory" that Robert Comsol is laying at Greg Jein's feet is USS Constitution = NCC-1700, not Enterprise is Constitution-class. I could be wrong though.

Second Revised Final Draft for "Space Seed,"
So does anyone know if this is the final shooting script? Was this an idea - like Ellison's drug dealer on the Enterprise - introduced by a writer and nixed at the end by Roddenberry, et al? It would be interesting to known when the decision was made to not show those graphics (script rewrite, review of dailies, editing room)
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Old December 24 2012, 12:37 AM   #66
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Well, hardcore Trek fans know that it's not really Greg's "pet theory."

Scene 44 of the Second Revised Final Draft for "Space Seed," dated December 13, 1966 has the following content:

44 ANGLE ON SICK BAY VIEWER

It is covered with mathematical symbols and diagrams. CAMERA PULLS BACK to show Khan studying with great concentration. He pushes a button. Another transparency appears: a chapter heading, reading: BASIC SPECIFICATIONS, CONSTITUTION CLASS STAR SHIP.

Scenes 47 and 48 have similar content:

From 47:

...At the door, she [McGivers] turns and looks back at him. He gives her a strong, masculine, confident smile. She is about to say something, but turns and exits. Khan turns back to his studying. He pushes a button, stares back up at his screen.

48 INSERT SCREEN

A chapter heading: Basic Propulsion Systems, Constitution Class Star Ship.

Most folks know that a graphic was made expressly for this scene:


According to this reasoning Greg Jein didn't "know" either, as he never made a reference to this explicit line "Basic Specifications, Constitution Class Starship" in his original article which I recommend reading: http://www.trekplace.com/article10.html

I have strong doubts whether this line is even authentic (this is a script for an episode and not the writer's guide. I believe in real life it would have read "basic specifications of the Enterprise" as most people involved with the production, like Bob Justman, would have otherwise wondered "What the heck is a Constitution Class Starship?").

But regardless, the only graphic (illustrated above) indicating the existence of a Constitution Class was shown in the "Trouble With Tribbles" as a part of a technical journal Scotty was reading, showing a schematic of a Primary Phaser L.R (neither basic specifications of the Enterprise nor its propulsion system!) that obviously belongs to a Star Ship of a Constitution Class.

As any "hardcore" fan knows (sorry, I couldn't resist the urge to return the "favor" ) the name "Constitution" wasn't even among the first name proposal lists for "the 12 ships of the Enterprise Starship Class" (Bob Justman) seven months later in August 1967.

Admittedly, it's tempting to make a connection between the final (!) "Constitution" name proposal and the "Constitution Class" small print on that graphic (indiscernable for the audience to read), but there's Bob Justman's slip of the tongue and Walter Matt Jefferies' clear statements and production sketch that state that the Enterprise was "the first bird", "the first in the series" and the name giver to the Enterprise Class (originally a believer of the "Constitution Class Theory" myself, I couldn't disregard the original producers' / creators' intentions any longer and felt it inevitable to take the red pill).

These are the facts and thus it's not a "pet theory" of mine, and I reject the notion I'm biased against Greg Jein because the contrary is the case.

In his article Greg Jein did an excellent research and came up with various impeccable and logical conclusions (e.g.: although Excalibur and Essex aren't identified as "starships" in the original "Amok Time" script, the final episode's script refers to "starships" the Enterprise is supposed to rendezvous with at Altair). It appears he was under the impression, then, that "starship" could only refer to sister ships of the Enterprise and not just the top-of-the-line vessels of Starfleet.

When he read "his" name list backwards and matched it with the starship status chart in "Court-Martial" he seemingly got the correct names with the corresponding numbers (his "pet theory").

Strangely, he didn't feel it necessary to explain why starships beginning with a "16" prefix should also belong to a Constitution Class whose very first ship supposedly began with "NCC-1700".

Further down, he even suggested himself that "the first part of the graph" in the status chart indicated "heavy mechanical labor/construction" which was exactly the case for "NCC 1700" which was the farthest from being complete (rather odd for the very first ship of the class, IMHO).

Unfortunately, he didn't elaborate on these obvious discrepancies and/or flaws of his theory, but encouraged the reader to feel free "to regard this with approval, disapproval, or indifference."

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and a great start into the new year! (We made it through 2012 and will hopefully survive the catastrophies of 2013 as well ) Keep on Techno-Trekking!

Bob
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Last edited by Robert Comsol; December 24 2012 at 12:56 AM.
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Old December 24 2012, 01:03 AM   #67
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

- "Starship class" clearly doesn't make sense (if taken literally, it would require the existence of a "USS Starship"). Clearly the sign should have said Starship TYPE, not Starship CLASS.
Not necessarily:

Star Trek III: The Search for Spock wrote:
CHEKOV (OC): I'd swear something that was there sir.
KIRK (OC): What did you see?
CHEKOV: For an instant ...a scout class vessel.
KIRK: Could be Grissom. Patch in the hailing frequency. Grissom, this is Enterprise calling. Please come in.
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Old December 24 2012, 01:31 AM   #68
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

Ships in ST VI
Michael Okuda is on record stating that the class for ships can be deduced from the charts. This is proven when Okuda listed both the Eagle and the Endeavour as Constitution-class starships. Another starship on the chart, the Potemkin, was identified as a Connie in TOS. The Ahwahnee, the Emden, and the Korolev had Connie silhouettes. If three are Connie, why not the other three?

Ships on Greg Jein's article
Okuda copied the registries for the Constitution, the Essex, the Excalibur, the Farragut, the Hood, the Intrepid, the Lexington, and the Yorktown. He altered for unknown reasons several other registries. New registries for the Eagle, the Endeavour, and the Potemkin were created. The registry for the Kongo was changed to 1710, and the John Muir was assigned 1732 instead. The registry of the Valiant was changed from 1623 to 1223.

U.S.S. Carolina
A ship missing from The Making of Star Trek and Greg Jein's article was the U.S.S. Carolina. This ship was mentioned briefly in "Friday's Child". The "U.S.S.", in accordance with TOS standards, would indicate that this ship was a Constitution-class ship as well. Using Jein's logic, this ship could just as well be NCC-1700.

Starship Class
This designation was used in the alternate reality 2250s. From several sources, I have learned that Starfleet had a Destroyer Class Vessel (TMoST), a Scout Class Vessel (ST III), and a Runabout Class Vessel ("Emissary"). Using what is available, I think that Constitution-class and Enterprise-class starships belonged to the Starship Class family of vessels. I don't think that there was ever a Starship, a Destroyer, a Scout, or a Ruanbout.
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Old December 24 2012, 01:36 AM   #69
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

I would also like to add that according to Whitfield's The Making of Star Trek Kirk's first command (before the Enterprise) was "the equivalent of a destroyer-class spaceship".

As a type the Enterprise is several times mentioned in this book as "cruiser", "heavy cruiser" or "space cruiser".

Bob
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Old December 24 2012, 02:03 AM   #70
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
According to this reasoning Greg Jein didn't "know" either, as he never made a reference to this explicit line "Basic Specifications, Constitution Class Starship" in his original article which I recommend reading: http://www.trekplace.com/article10.html

I have strong doubts whether this line is even authentic (this is a script for an episode and not the writer's guide. I believe in real life it would have read "basic specifications of the Enterprise" as most people involved with the production, like Bob Justman, would have otherwise wondered "What the heck is a Constitution Class Starship?").
Bob
Hi Bob,

I'm not sure to what you're referring in your query ("whether this line is authentic"), but if it's to the "BASIC SPECIFICATIONS..." description in the script, I can assure you that it's transcribed correctly.

Kind Regards,

Dave
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Old December 24 2012, 02:26 AM   #71
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

alchemist wrote: View Post
"I'm not sure to what you're referring in your query ("whether this line is authentic"), but if it's to the "BASIC SPECIFICATIONS..." description in the script, I can assure you that it's transcribed correctly."
Thanks for the extra effort, but now I'd like to hear the whole story.
So what are we looking at?

A) A screenplay writer that wanted to leave a footprint in the Star Trek Universe by being the first to put the Enterprise in a "Constitution Class" (He wouldn't be the the first as the early novel writers tried to pigeonhole the Enterprise in a "Constellation Class" which makes the overused "Connie" rather debatable since that was the nickname for Lockheed's Constellation airplane: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Constellation )?

I can't help but it appears too many people were clearly influenced by the US frigates USS Constellation (launched September 7, 1797) and USS Constitution (launched October 21, 1797). Of course the first frigate was the (USS) United States which adds credibility to the "Starship Class" (e.g. "United Star Ship Republic")

or

B) A producer (Bob Justman) with amnesia (because "Constitution" isn't on his name proposal list from 9-8-1967) and delusion ("Enterprise Starship Class")?

Bob
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Old December 24 2012, 02:54 AM   #72
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

The Enterprise is identified as a star cruiser, like the Valiant, in the episode "A Taste of Armageddon".

What writers identified the Enterprise as a Constellation-class starship?
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Old December 24 2012, 03:06 AM   #73
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

throwback wrote: View Post
"What writers identified the Enterprise as a Constellation-class starship?"
You'll find them mentioned here: www.trekplace.com/article02.html

Bob

P.S. That was the USS Valiant in "A Taste of Armageddon" but probably a different ship class than the Enterprise.
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Old December 24 2012, 04:25 AM   #74
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

I think it's possibly that USS Valiant might belong to another class. But, when I consider that Miranda and Excelsior-classes were in operation a century after their introduction and were constantly being refitted to match current standards, it's possible that the Valiant could be also a Constitution-class starship.
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Old December 24 2012, 04:35 AM   #75
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Re: NCC = Not Constitution Class?

throwback wrote: View Post
The Enterprise is identified as a star cruiser, like the Valiant, in the episode "A Taste of Armageddon".

What writers identified the Enterprise as a Constellation-class starship?
Well, the memo from Bob Justman of August 9, 1967 only indicated the names he liked from D.C. Fontana's proposed list. I don't think it was meant to be the exhaustive list. For example, it doesn't have the Defiant which was still a year from being created, but his list also didn't include the Exeter--which was among D.C. Fontana's suggestions. In the end, it looks like the list of Starships was settled upon by Roddenberry regardless of what Bob Justman's preferences might have been.


Of course, the "Constitution class" script comment first appeared in the "Space Seed" script by Carey Wilbur and Gene L. Coon. It's there not only in the Second Revised Final Draft script dated December 13, 1966, but also in the Final Draft script dated a week before that, if not in earlier drafts.
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