The City on the Edge of Forever

[Maurice]

It's not spammy to link to a review on your own site as long as it's clearly labeled as such.

[Mr_Homn]

Maurice wrote:

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It's not spammy to link to a review on your own site as long as it's clearly labeled as such.

Would have been a lot neater than that giant influx of text too..

[RB_Kandy]

OK guys, next time some thread pops up debating an episode of trek that I have reviewed, I'll just link to the review instead of copy & paste

[Warped9]

RB_Kandy wrote:

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OK guys, next time some thread pops up debating an episode of trek that I have reviewed, I'll just link to the review instead of copy & paste

I really like this episode and yet I also liked your review. You hit all the points I agree with and also made me laugh like a fool.

Well done.

[1001001]

RB_Kandy wrote:

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OK guys, next time some thread pops up debating an episode of trek that I have reviewed, I'll just link to the review instead of copy & paste

Yes, please do.

Thanks.

[Esteban]

There are many reasons why "City" remains the best episode in my mind.

First, the story, at the time, was unique and compelling.

Second, the production of it was, for TOS, lavish. They spent nearly $40,000 over budget on it--from $192K to $232K--and it showed.

It showed in the sheer number of scenes. Someday, watch it again and count the setups. Far more than any other episode. Joe Peveny worked that ep.

It also by showed in going on location.

And yes it showed by giving speaking lines to several character actors--the cop, the rodent, Bart LaRue, and even Uhura, Scotty, and Sulu, who at that time were just an additional cost. In fact, I'm trying to recall a first season episode where all of those guys got a speaking part in the same ep.

Finally, although it has been criticized by Ellison for the Roddenberry touches (Edith's speech, and more importantly Kirk and Spock's reactions), that bit of bonk-bonk always spoke to me.

Gifted insight? Maybe not.

But how can you not like the last 3 minutes?

[Mr_Homn]

Esteban wrote:

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But how can you not like the last 3 minutes?

"Let's get the hell out of here"

Possibly my favorite moment in star trek history. It might be when Kirk first truly realized what Q later told Picard in TNG:

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid."

One of the reasons The Wrath of Khan bugs me is that they tell us over and over that Kirk never faced the no-win scenario. Well that is total bullshit. Kirk faced the no-win scenario in The City on the Edge of Forever.

[Warped9]

Mr_Homn wrote:

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One of the reasons The Wrath of Khan bugs me is that they tell us over and over that Kirk never faced the no-win scenario. Well that is total bullshit. Kirk faced the no-win scenario in The City on the Edge of Forever.

Spot on. TWOK was made by some who really didn't know TOS.

[Timewalker]

RB_Kandy wrote:

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Edith offers them a job, Spock questions how much is the pay. Kirk gives him a look, Spock says he wants money for radio tubes and stuff, his hobby.

So much for Kirk not knowing about money in The Voyage Home. But I suppose that since Edith was the one paying in "City", that's why Kirk didn't mind Gillian paying for the pizza in the movie.

Later Spock and Kirk are sitting at a table in the dining hall with a bunch of hobos. One of the hobos says that it's time to pay for the food, referring to the fact you have to sit there and listen to Edith, the owner of this mission, give a speech about the future. She says things like “one day man will be able to harness incredible energies, maybe even the atom.” she talks about how in the future they will be able to fly around the galaxy, maybe in some kind of space ship. And man will be able to cure hunger and disease and so on, and that's why it is important that they break away from whatever drug addiction or habits they have, and to live, and to have hope.
...
Kirk seems impressed by this. But here's what I never understood, how does she know these things? Is she from the future? Is she psychic? Is she the next Marie Curie, did she date either Einstein or Tesla? How could anyone from the 1930's predict such things unless they were either crazy, and just spouting nonsense, or had a very over active imagination?
Well, it never actually gets explained. Well, it sort of does, Kirk asks how she knows the future will look like how she described, and she says “I just know”. But that's not really an explanation. It's really akin to saying “Well, that's just kinda how I picture it”.

There's no reason Edith couldn't be interested in science. Maybe she read science fiction (yes, there was SF fandom going on in 1930).

Anyway Spock tells Kirk that in one instance of time Edith is married to the President, in another she is dead, from a traffic accident. Kirk mentions both can't be true. Kirk says it in a way that lets the audience know that secretly, he knows what this means. He knows it means that the historical event that Bones changed was Edith's death. Spock explains she is the focal point they have been looking for.

Edith married to the President? WTF? Edith MET the President. The episode never said she MARRIED him.

The hobo walks away, around the corner, and then plays with the phaser, and blasts himself out of existence. Oddly, he just turns blue and fades, it is an unusual phaser effect. I hear in the modern remake, the digitally remastered, they changed that scene to make the phaser effect more believable because it was such an eye sore in the film.

The hobo accidentally put the phaser on overload. That's not the same thing as accidentally shooting himself.


BTW... In the Voyager episode referenced, Janeway and Paris didn't steal the clothes. There's a shot of them coming out of the clothing store with native duds on, and their Starfleet uniforms are shown on display in the store window. So they didn't steal anything. They TRADED.

[Mr_Homn]

Timewalker wrote:

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So much for Kirk not knowing about money in The Voyage Home.

He knew about money. In TVH, he said "They're still using money. We need to get some."

[Silvercrest]

Warped9 wrote:

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Spot on. TWOK was made by some who really didn't know TOS.

After the end credits of COTEOF, Spock put his hand on Kirk's face and said, "Forget." Just like every other time.

TWOK was the first time Kirk had to face the no-win scenario because he didn't have Spock to erase it for him.

[T'Girl]

RB_Kandy wrote:

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Bones comes out from behind the rocks yelling and raving like a mad man. Spock puts him down with a Vulcan nerve pinch.

This is one of the major flaws in the story, a plot hole, why Kirk didn't immediately beam McCoy up to the Enterprise once Spock put him down? McCoy was suffering a serious medical condition, even if Kirk kept the majority of the landing party on the surface to investigate the Guardian, McCoy should have been in sickbay getting his blood filtered or something.

Spock tells Kirk he needs some platinum, a small block will do, about 5 or 6 lbs. [snip] The scene is funny because Spock has no understanding of how outrageously expensive these simple metals are.

Today six pound of platinum (87.5 troy ounces) is $139,562. In 1930, it would have been around $3,850. They were making 15¢ per hour.

[RB_Kandy]

timewalker wrote:

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There's no reason Edith couldn't be interested in science. Maybe she read science fiction (yes, there was SF fandom going on in 1930).

If this were the case, than her "knowing" about the future would be more accurately put as "well, I'm just totally guessing with lots of optimism."

If I were to say "in the future man will learn to cure arthritis, schizophrenia, anxiety, depression, cancer, acne, and the visible appearance of aging" I would be guessing at the future. And my statements should not be taken any more serious than a child spouting their over active imagination.

If the owner of Intel or AMD gave a speech and said "in 15 years from now, computers will be running 4.5 times as fast as today" his statement is less of a fanciful guess, and more of authority driven estimation.

If the head of NASA says "in the future, around 2090, we should have the moon fully colonized" it's still a guess, but a highly educated guess.

Also, taking an interest in science would not give someone an understanding of such a distant future any more than a child's over active imagination. Again, if she were Marie Curie, or the wife of Tesla or Einstein, her statements would be more believable because these were true geniuses that pushed the boundaries of technology and scientific understanding. Tesla alone is responsible for half the great technological society we are today. Some call him the man that built the 20th century.

When some kid says "I believe time travel is possible" it means nothing. When Tesla, Einstein, or Edison says "I believe in the future time travel will be possible" in spite of the fact they're just guessing, their voice carries weight because of who they are and what they've done for science.

Because she is not a time traveler, is not from another world, does not have psychic powers, has not come in contact with a time traveler or alien (before Kirk and Spock) She cannot "know" the future, and if she is not a monumental scientific genius, her "guess" at the future is baseless.

timewalker wrote:

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Edith married to the President? WTF? Edith MET the President. The episode never said she MARRIED him.

Oops! my bad. I totally just got it in my head that she was married to the president, which I thought was just weird.

timewalker wrote:

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The hobo accidentally put the phaser on overload. That's not the same thing as accidentally shooting himself

Oh it was on overload? doesn't that normally take like 30 seconds or longer?

After re-watching it, you're right, it was on over load. I thought that whistling sound was the "suspenseful music" I just seen him point it at himself, and turn blue. Anyhow, I did hear somewhere there is a remastered version with a different phaser effect. Or maybe that was the remastered version and the original just showed the blue flash when McCoy's face was on screen. Maybe that remastering is why the phaser overloaded in like 2 or 3 seconds.

timewalker wrote:

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BTW... In the Voyager episode referenced, Janeway and Paris didn't steal the clothes. There's a shot of them coming out of the clothing store with native duds on, and their Starfleet uniforms are shown on display in the store window. So they didn't steal anything. They TRADED.

You're right! I just went to that scene. For a split second you can see a few people pointing at the uniform. But wow, if you tip up a bottle of soda and take a drink, you'd completely miss that LOL
But you're right. I really went on a long rant in my Time And Again review about that LOL.

RB_kandy wrote:

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Spock tells Kirk he needs some platinum, a small block will do, about 5 or 6 lbs. [snip] The scene is funny because Spock has no understanding of how outrageously expensive these simple metals are.

T'Girl wrote:

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Today six pound of platinum (87.5 troy ounces) is $139,562. In 1930, it would have been around $3,850. They were making 15¢ per hour.

and for both of them to make 15 cents per our combined, is 30 cents, if we assume a long work day of 10 hours, it would take them 3.5 years to obtain that money. But that's assuming they had no other expenses, which they did.
The reality of it is, if you make 15 cents an hour in 1930, and you are expected to pay for your own food, and medical treatment, and rent, you are never going to acquire 6 lbs of platinum.

[Warped9]

Edith Keeler is an idealist. She manages to believe in possibilities where most anyone else would see wishful thinking because most anyone else can only see the here and now. It's no different today.

Although we didn't see her reading interests she could have been reading science fiction and science articles of the era which could have fueled her imagination and optimism. The principles of atomic power and even space flight were already known at the time and the SF of the day already had adventurers in spaceships (including FTL) traveling through the galaxy to other worlds. In her time society had already changed greatly with the car and airplane and radio and even medicine amongst others---to an idealist the possibilities could have seemed limitless.

We don't have to go that far back to see that kind of optimism. Anyone today of the right age could have experienced much the same in the 1950s and '60s. Today there is a pervasive cynicism that colours so much of what we perceive including history and individuals' sense of optimism and idealism.

If Edith Keeler was about 30 then even within her lifetime she had seen technologies like the car, the airplane and radio go from interesting curiosities to widespread mainstream use throughout society and the world. Today the personal computer and the Internet pervades many of our lives and yet they were relegated mostly to government and business only twenty years ago. Cellphones are only about twenty-five years old and now they're everywhere.

[King Daniel Into Darkness]

CorporalCaptain wrote:

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This has been brought up before. The Guardian made it clear that time resuming its shape depended upon Edith dying.

But think about this. Without witnesses to her death and a body, how do you know that one of the bums at the mission wouldn't be blamed for her disappearance, whereas in Kirk's timeline that bum was actually reformed and went on to make a substantive contribution to history? You can't pluck Edith out of the timeline without risking other consequences.

The episode already gave us a standard by which someone could disappear from the timeline without consequence: the bum who mugged McCoy and then accidentally phasered himself away. Edith doesn't fall into that category of someone at a dead end of history, so she can't just be plucked out without consequence.

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@OP: Too bad you were disappointed.

Although I can imagine the butterfly effect leading to any number of changes should Edith vanish instead of dying in the street (the truck driver's life path, for example), I can't help but compare to The Voyage Home, where Gillian Taylor is brought to the future without a second thought or any negative consequences.