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Fan Productions Creating our own Trek canon!

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Old October 14 2012, 04:35 PM   #16
doubleohfive
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

Yeah, but the battle in Nemesis was boring. Not sure one can say the same of the battle in Wrath of Khan.
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Old October 14 2012, 04:58 PM   #17
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

It was all I could do not to walk out of the theater during Nemesis. The only memorable thing about that battle was that Dina Meyer showed up, whom I've had a crush on since Johnny Mnemonic.
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Old October 14 2012, 05:05 PM   #18
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

I don't actually mind Nemesis. As disappointed as I was at the time, I actually kind of enjoy it now. I thought the battle was fine.

They tried to shake things up with Nemesis, which I give them credit for. Unfortunately, they just didn't ht the right marks.
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Old October 14 2012, 10:15 PM   #19
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

There is much good in nemesis, but that B4 plot line sucks and should have been eliminated. What happens when actors get co-writing credits. The stuff between Picard and Shinzon was pretty damn good. And I the battle scene like it or not, is different than any other battle scene we have seen in Trek, especially all the rather mediocre mega-battles in DS9 (my favorite Trek series) in which ships have no shields and just blow up.
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Old December 19 2013, 05:48 PM   #20
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

Recently I've rewatched The Hobbit and I came to the same conclusions at the start of my thread. Films get more and more over the top. And moments that could have been pivotal, memorable, are executed in a generic, blink-and-you'll miss it fashion.

Compare the scene where the Dwarfs flee from Goblin town to the scene where the company flees from the Balrog (which is quite a good comparison to make since AUJ and FotR have the same structure). In The Hobbit, there is SO MUCH thrown at you. In Fellowship, a lot less happens. They run, they get to the broken stairway while getting shot at a few times, then they get to the bridge, and then Gandalf confronts the Balroq. Done. In The Hobbit, they run and run and run and I can't even list all the stuff that happens. I think they take a spear and shove Goblins out of the way, cut a few bridges down, etc... the most memorable piece was where Gandalf blasts the rock and it smashes Goblins while the company runs after it. But all of that goes by so quickly, and is pretty unmemorable.

I THINK that if they had made that scene ten years ago, the part with the rock would have been the focus of the sequence, and the other generic stuff would have been toned down quite a bit.

Is it about resting points perhaps? In recent films I feel that I have no place in the films where my mind can rest and reflect on what is happening right now. Sometimes it even feels like the characters make decisions way too quickly? It's like stuff is over choreographed? You can see that in some fight scenes in a few movies, where fights look like a dance rather than an actual fight, simply because each of the opponents knows what attack they have to block before it even happens.



The final battle in Man of Steel is similarly confusing. Even though that may have been the intention, because Superman and Zod have superspeed and shit. There is that bit that I had to play over and over again to understand it. Superman and Zod crash into a garage building. Shortly after that, Superman punches Zod and has him on the ground, then he strikes out for a second punch, but gets hit by a car falling down from a collapsing garage building. Then he throws it away and Zod escapes. The idea sounds actually like a great part of a fight sequence. But the way it's executed was just way too fast. I don't have superspeed.

Last edited by JarodRussell; December 19 2013 at 06:00 PM.
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Old December 19 2013, 05:55 PM   #21
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Is it about resting points perhaps? In recent films I feel that I have no place in the films where my mind can rest and reflect on what is happening right now. Sometimes it even feels like the characters make decisions way too quickly? It's like stuff is over choreographed? You can see that in some fight scenes in a few movies, where fights look like a dance rather than an actual fight, simply because each of the opponents knows what attack they have to block before it even happens.

This is a problem I have with The Dark Knight. An excellent film, yes. But it's also one that delivers big scene after big scene and after a certain point, doesn't stop to let you catch your breath.
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Old December 19 2013, 06:03 PM   #22
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Is it about resting points perhaps? In recent films I feel that I have no place in the films where my mind can rest and reflect on what is happening right now. Sometimes it even feels like the characters make decisions way too quickly? It's like stuff is over choreographed? You can see that in some fight scenes in a few movies, where fights look like a dance rather than an actual fight, simply because each of the opponents knows what attack they have to block before it even happens.

This is a problem I have with The Dark Knight. An excellent film, yes. But it's also one that delivers big scene after big scene and after a certain point, doesn't stop to let you catch your breath.
Now that you mention it, I did have feelings of confusion during the last action scene where Batman fights against the SWAT teams.
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Old December 19 2013, 08:47 PM   #23
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

I agree that many action filmmakers have gone over the top with relentless, endless "cappers", where one action tops the preceding one in endless succession without taking a breath. Ultimately it becomes tiresome and numbing because there's no time to build up tension (oh my gosh, will they make it?) before the next whammy hits you.

Peter Jackson also has no self control and can't figure out when a scene actually has ended, dragging such action out interminably. I was pretty done with him by King Kong, and then suffered through the first Hobbit film (via a screener), and I simply will not waste any more time on him on his movies. The man proves my current signature (the Welles quote).
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Old December 19 2013, 08:57 PM   #24
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

I guess so. They can do whatever they want now, and they do it.
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Old December 20 2013, 04:43 AM   #25
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

Very much like what happened to Lucas. The limitations imposed on him during the first two episodes (and to a much lesser extent the third) forced him to find less expensive and better ways to do things. He pissed and moaned for years about all the things he wanted to do but couldn't so when parts 1-2-3 come along he has a virtual blank check and none of the three came close to matching the first three. In TOS the transporter was a device dreamed up because they couldn't come up with a cost effective way to use shuttles. As someone noted the transporters proved to be a great storytelling device because it allowed them to get right into the meat of the script without an interim in the shuttle.
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Old December 20 2013, 10:39 AM   #26
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I guess so. They can do whatever they want now, and they do it.
This is one of the things I noticed about Gravity. It quite deliberately takes "breaths," and the surrounding action is much more striking for it.

This is how you'll know genuinely good action filmmakers henceforth. Restraint. (I'd put TDK right on the cusp of this. It's a major motivator for the "relentless action beats" style of filmmaking, but has a purpose for the pace it sets -- conveying the anarchic progression of a Joker rampage -- that imitators don't have.)
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Old December 20 2013, 12:07 PM   #27
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

The PG-13 audience that these pictures are aimed at have to be taken into consideration, as well. They've seen it all, already, in the first place. Every effect and style of storytelling has been presented to them, some way, or another. And empathy is one thing that people seem to have a big problem with. They simply cannot, or will not, put themselves into other people's shoes. And it does seem that is responded to, actually, with the way characterizations are set up.

Peter Jackson's LOTR Trilogy has been presented as an exception here, but the "firsts" involved in it's never having been a movie before and the classic importance of Tolkien's trilogy lent themselves to a sort of restraint, in an attempt, at least, to be somewhat faithful to the books. It's worth noting how directors like Peter Jackson, still talk about how FX have become so easily accessible that audiences know their source and become less impressed by them, so now, the emphasis of a movie becomes the story. Strangely, this sentiment is seldom acted upon, much less delivered by those same directors ...
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Old December 20 2013, 04:36 PM   #28
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

I think CGI has become digital crack for some directors. Jackson did a great job of hitting the right notes in the LOTR films. It appears to me that the Hobbit just kept expanding and getting more bloated as it went along. It seems to me that it would be lot healthier to start pre=production with the idea of throwing in absolutely everything the film maker wants and then cutting from there. The Hobbit would have benefited from a lot of stuff being cut out of the final script and then some more cutting in the editing process. It's when a film maker says they couldn't bear to cut certain things out and have the power not to cut them that red flags start going up for me.
I feel much the same way about NuTrek, even though I have great respect for Abrams' fillm-making abilities.
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Old December 20 2013, 10:18 PM   #29
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Is it about resting points perhaps? In recent films I feel that I have no place in the films where my mind can rest and reflect on what is happening right now. Sometimes it even feels like the characters make decisions way too quickly? It's like stuff is over choreographed? You can see that in some fight scenes in a few movies, where fights look like a dance rather than an actual fight, simply because each of the opponents knows what attack they have to block before it even happens.

This is a problem I have with The Dark Knight. An excellent film, yes. But it's also one that delivers big scene after big scene and after a certain point, doesn't stop to let you catch your breath.
In prose writing, there's the concept of scene and sequel that comes to mind here.

It's almost like action and reaction. Something important happens, the character processes it, and then the story moves on. I think many movies focus on the scene at the expense of sequel, which becomes tiring and confusing for many viewers.
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Old December 20 2013, 10:26 PM   #30
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Re: Thoughts about Filmmaking

I have the feeling that because the majority of those sequences was created in post production, they see it over and over and over again, get "blind" so to speak, and forget that the audience won't be able to catch up with that sequence.
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