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Old October 10 2012, 12:01 AM   #271
I Am Groot
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

DarthTom wrote: View Post
We do have a real life example of the DE-evolution of society. When Rome fell and the world went into the "dark ages," I'm sure that many folks had a sense that things at one point were better as they looked at the abandoned cities and the amazing achievement. Also science went backwards.
That's a myth that was largely promoted by Enlightenment age philosophers, authors, and historians. Science never went backwards, and many of the technological principles developed in the Greek and Roman empires continued to be used and improved upon; never mind the arrogance of thinking science and technology ended at the borders of the Roman Empire --The Middle East, India, China, and the empires of the Americas produced countless advancements as well.

There were many new inventions which drastically improves the lives of people in the Middle Ages, including:

Collars and harnesses for horses which allowed them to pull heavier loads and larger wagons without injury and with greater speed. The iron horseshoe protected their hooves and allowed greater traction. Paired harnesses allowed the horses to be arranged in groups of two in a line instead of all of them side by side, and thus allowed a greater number of horses to be used at once. The collar and harness allowed for the development of the furrow plough with adjustable plowing depth, which created an agricultural revolution.

Wind and water power were harnessed like never before, even during the Roman Empire with their aqueducts. Water powered mills allowed for industrialized sawing, grinding of grains, clothmaking, papermaking, blacksmithing, drawing wire, etc. Waterwheels were everywhere and allowed individuals villages a degree of autonomy they had never seen before. In places without accessible rivers and streams, windmills allowed for milling, the grinding of grain, and the pumping of water.

Eyeglasses were invented and allowed people to work longer, learn better, and have greater safety both at home and work.

The mechanical clock was invented and allowed precise scheduling and coordination of activities across great distances for the first time.

The Middle Ages were a time of great new universities, massive cathedrals, poetry, art, literature, and science. Yes, they had their ignorance and superstition just as any age does, but there was not a de-evolution of society as the myth suggests, and it's sad to see it still persists.
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Old October 10 2012, 12:08 AM   #272
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

This show definitely keeps improving IMO. I really liked getting to learn more about Maggie, and after this episode I am disappointed to see her go. Overall I thought this was a really good episode. I'm very curious to see what exactly is going on with Charlie's mother.
As for the stuff you guys are debating. I honestly never really thought about any of that, and to be honest I don't really care about it. All I care about at this point is that I like Charlie, Aaron,Miles, Nora, and Capt. Neville and I am curious to see where their stories are going. At this point, they could just never explain the blackout and I really wouldn't care. The blackout was pretty much just an excuse to put these characters in the situation they are in, and I find that situation interesting. They could say that magic fairies came and sucked all of the electricity up their asses and I would just shrug my shoulders and go back to watching the current story play out.
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Old October 10 2012, 12:28 AM   #273
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Should this stupid scenario ever come about, people will have the same -- if not more -- motivation to redevelop those old technologies. Especially if they're a maniacal dictator with nearly unlimited resources and a strong desire to gain a tactical advantage over their enemies.

Despite what you may think, not all people aren't stupid, helpless, or lazy. You're almost as bad as those loons on Ancient Aliens who are convinced that aliens built the pyramids because lifting and carrying a stone is hard work. And God forbid someone spend more time doing actual work than fritzing up their hair and sitting in front of a television camera.
We do have a real life example of the DE-evolution of society. When Rome fell and the world went into the "dark ages," I'm sure that many folks had a sense that things at one point were better as they looked at the abandoned cities and the amazing achievement. Also science went backwards.
The Dark Ages never happened. No real historian uses the term anymore.

During the Early Middle Ages Roman engineering was not lost, rather it became impractical to perform as without Pax Romana the West splintered in several kingdoms and continued to use the old (and resilient) Roman infrastructure as well as developing new technologies (like those Locutus posted above). The breakdown in trade from the loss of Pax Romana also contributed to the lack new widespread innovation, innovation tended to be more localized until trade became safer.

However the key here is that Roman engineering and science was never lost, it never went backwards. It simply became impractical or impossible to utilize by the warring kingdoms until a wider empire/kingdom was reestablished.

The whole idea of the Dark Ages and "life was better before" didn't occur until the Late Middle Ages and as such the Renaissance (rebirth) was an attempt to return society to a supposedly superior classic past, while in reality society had made several large leaps in the intervening thousand years.
Scout101 wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
You're almost as bad as those loons on Ancient Aliens who are convinced that aliens built the pyramids because lifting and carrying a stone is hard work. And God forbid someone spend more time doing actual work than fritzing up their hair and sitting in front of a television camera.
Not even trying to hide the strawman on that one, huh? Pyramids were built because they had a massive amount of disposable slave labor, and didn't much care how many died in the process. And they weren't expecting the WalMart to go up in 3 months, it was expected that it take 20-30 years. Given almost unlimited people, funding, and time (and motivation), and voila', pyramid.

We picture it as hard because we can't figure out to build a big enough crane system. They built a ramp, had 10,000 people push, and then if the 10,000 got crushed, tried with 20,000 next time. No aliens required.

Will just ignore your last comment about whether this scenario (honest, god-fearing work) is better or worse than what we're doing today, as I can't see how killing 90% or more of the world's population is a positive, even if the survivors learn to knit.
Recent evidence shows that the Pyramids were not actually built by slave labor. Rather by paid workers who built the Pyramids during the periods of the year when the Nile flooded making it impossible to farm.
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Old October 10 2012, 03:19 AM   #274
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

I think I have two problems with this show and it will bug me until they are either addressed or rectified:

Problem One

The backdrop on this show is that it's set 15 years into the future after the blackout. To me, this is almost as if the writers said we don't want to go to a deeper level and actually show what life is like right after the lights went out and how Humanity de-evolves into what we've seen. It's the writers saying, let's set the show 15 years into the future where society is somewhat stable, we have this menacing force called the militia, but the sets and everything have to do with aging is left for naught. Why can't this series be set 3 years after the blackout, or 5 years. Why do we have this 15 year set number but it looks like nothing much as changed in terms of how old people are or what things look like? I mean I'm watching this show and I forget this is 15 years into the future. I really wish this was something the writers focused on in an episode because if you're going to set that as a backdrop, give us an explaination as to why and then set your story.

Problem 2

This kind of ties into problem one, but it was something that irked me last night and that was how clean everything looked. I'm talking of course not just the environment, but people too. Take Maggie for instance. You mean to tell me she walked across the country from Seattle to Buffalo and it looked like she had just walked around the block? Wouldn't a walk like that change someone. I mean give them a scratch or something, or show that they just walked for the last few months and the effects something like that has had on the person. I know it's a conceit that networks want attractive people on the show (CSI or NCIS anyone?) but it bothers me that things are looking too peachy clean.

Other than these two problems, I did enjoy the show last night. I still love the relationship growth between Miles and Charlie and I thought it was an interesting risk to
.

I think there are interesting concepts going on in this show and I appreciate that the story keeps moving a good structured pace every week. It's just these are two big issues I have with the show and it's serving a bit of a distraction. Maybe they don't have to address the cleanliness issue, but if they were to tackle the whole 15 years thing and why now are they suddenly wondering why the power went out, I would appreciate it.
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Old October 10 2012, 06:25 AM   #275
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

The Mediocre Pumpkin wrote: View Post
That's a myth that was largely promoted by Enlightenment age philosophers, authors, and historians. Science never went backwards, and many of the technological principles developed in the Greek and Roman empires continued to be used and improved upon; never mind the arrogance of thinking science and technology ended at the borders of the Roman Empire --The Middle East, India, China, and the empires of the Americas produced countless advancements as well.
Piggybacking on your and SG17's points, this myth also implicitly depends on ignoring the fact that the Roman Empire continued for another 1000 years.

JD wrote: View Post
They could say that magic fairies came and sucked all of the electricity up their asses and I would just shrug my shoulders and go back to watching the current story play out.
Pretty much my feelings. I'm really not all that interested in explaining why the power went out or the technical details on how they might turn it back on. It's the characters and the setting we have now that got me interested in the first place.
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Old October 10 2012, 10:41 AM   #276
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Before I get into the quoted posts, I want to add that the Dark Ages never happened, especially not as some sort of Dung Age where every smelled, everything went backwards, and horses were replaced by coconuts to save money.

The Roman Empire didn't actually fall till about 1453, if you want to be technical. In Western Europe, many people didn't even truly notice that the empire went away--they knew that they paid their taxes to some guy named Heinrich or Henri instead of Pacifius Decimus Imperator Caesar, but life went on quite well.

At best a few cities became smaller in size.

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
I think I have two problems with this show and it will bug me until they are either addressed or rectified:

Problem One

The backdrop on this show is that it's set 15 years into the future after the blackout. To me, this is almost as if the writers said we don't want to go to a deeper level and actually show what life is like right after the lights went out and how Humanity de-evolves into what we've seen. It's the writers saying, let's set the show 15 years into the future where society is somewhat stable...
While I wouldn't mind seeing more of the meat of the collapse, I don't mind that they set the series after things had settled down a bit. I think their plan is not so much a story about the collapse of civilization but a story about rebuilding it. Having the first season or three be about people starving to death and eating each other would probably mean they'd never get to tell a story about the reconstruction.

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Problem 2

This kind of ties into problem one, but it was something that irked me last night and that was how clean everything looked.
Yeah, things are well too preserved. Big cities should have burned without fire departments after everyone left to find food. A lot of the small towns they pass through seem to have suffered a hurricane rather than 15 years of neglect, but I can chalk that down to suspension of disbelief (I'll just ignore what they can't do on a TV budget) and think that maybe some of the small towns survived longer than the cities.

But I can understand things being clean and well maintained--though they still look too pretty. The heart of this show isn't that people became 18th century types again, they just lost their technology. Knowing what we know about disease, as long as people have access to clean enough water I can see them taking the time to keep themselves clean--even if that means washing their clothes in a lake and taking a swim while they dry. People were dirty in the past (when they were dirty) because they didn't know any better, not because they were unconcerned with cleanliness. Cultures that cared about keeping clean, kept clean. If nothing else, think of the Roman baths.
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Old October 10 2012, 01:31 PM   #277
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

I'm generally liking the show but I can't get past how little the adults have changed in 15 years. If you want to see what 15 years does to a person look at Richard Dean Anderson in the SG-1 premier and compare that to his final appearance in SGU.
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Old October 10 2012, 03:30 PM   #278
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
But oh God, they couldn't possibly be arsed to build/repair a relatively simple boiler or diesel engine, could they? I made a simple steam engine in junior high for Christ's sake, and that was with a few bucks worth of material, a book, and a little trial and error... and all so I could get a meaningless grade for the project. But who cares? Well-educated adults are too stupid and lazy to do anything even remotely like that, especially if it means making their actual lives better.
BTW, in case you missed it next week's preview has the protagnoists attacking a steam engine..

Revoultion Preview, episode 5, Soul Train
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Old October 10 2012, 03:35 PM   #279
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
But oh God, they couldn't possibly be arsed to build/repair a relatively simple boiler or diesel engine, could they? I made a simple steam engine in junior high for Christ's sake, and that was with a few bucks worth of material, a book, and a little trial and error... and all so I could get a meaningless grade for the project. But who cares? Well-educated adults are too stupid and lazy to do anything even remotely like that, especially if it means making their actual lives better.
BTW, in case you missed it next week's preview has the protagnoists attacking a steam engine..

Revoultion Preview, episode 5, Soul Train

awesome. Been wondering why people were so absolutely sure no one was using steam. We havn't exactly seen a lot of instances where steam would have been used anyway.
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Old October 10 2012, 03:41 PM   #280
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
I Why can't this series be set 3 years after the blackout, or 5 years. Why do we have this 15 year set number but it looks like nothing much as changed in terms of how old people are or what things look like? I mean I'm watching this show and I forget this is 15 years into the future. I really wish this was something the writers focused on in an episode because if you're going to set that as a backdrop, give us an explaination as to why and then set your story.
15 years make sense in order to make the children old enough to be adults and create the drama obviously to come with the mother why she's in collorbation with the militia.

You mean to tell me she walked across the country from Seattle to Buffalo and it looked like she had just walked around the block? Wouldn't a walk like that change someone. I mean give them a scratch or something, or show that they just walked for the last few months and the effects something like that has had on the person. I know it's a conceit that networks want attractive people on the show (CSI or NCIS anyone?) but it bothers me that things are looking too peachy clean.
Her long ass walk was kind of far fetched. Regarding being cleaned up after such a long walk that shit doesn't necessarily bother me.
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Old October 10 2012, 06:13 PM   #281
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

wissaBOO wrote: View Post
Been wondering why people were so absolutely sure no one was using steam.
Pretty sure google guy said in the premiere that steam power didn't work. One would presume, since he is the scientist archetype for the show, that at some point over the past 15 years that he tested it.
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Old October 10 2012, 06:42 PM   #282
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

DarthTom wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
But oh God, they couldn't possibly be arsed to build/repair a relatively simple boiler or diesel engine, could they? I made a simple steam engine in junior high for Christ's sake, and that was with a few bucks worth of material, a book, and a little trial and error... and all so I could get a meaningless grade for the project. But who cares? Well-educated adults are too stupid and lazy to do anything even remotely like that, especially if it means making their actual lives better.
BTW, in case you missed it next week's preview has the protagnoists attacking a steam engine..

Revoultion Preview, episode 5, Soul Train
So why aren't you being smarmy to all the people saying that having one is an absurd notion, too? That it's apparently impossible to consider even the slightest notion of one existing. Afterall, the ancient and secret methods for baking bread have been lost, too.
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Old October 10 2012, 07:22 PM   #283
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Mister Fandango;7084126S wrote:
so why aren't you being smarmy to all the people saying that having one is an absurd notion, too? That it's apparently impossible to consider even the slightest notion of one existing. Afterall, the ancient and secret methods for baking bread have been lost, too.
Ok smart ass - we get it you hate the show. At least it's better entertainment than the most popular show on TV today - sadly - which is Dancing with the Stars.

Also, something to watch on Monday night other than football and while I anxiously await the return of The Walking Dead
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Old October 10 2012, 07:39 PM   #284
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

^he's actually attacking me, not the show, i believe. Assume that's why the bread reference was in there.

Of course, he's completely bypassed my point in favor of making an ass of himself trying to mock me. The bread question was, simply: do you know how to make it, from scratch? Know anyone that does?

Personally, i don't.

Water, flour, yeast, and sugar, per teh interwebs. Of course, you couldn't have looked that up, so you'd have to be carrying another book (have you put down the steam engine one yet, they are getting heavy, right?). Keep digging through the pile, as you've now gotta figure out how to make yeast before you can start this (assuming you've got your own gristmill for flour, and have managed to grow and harvest the wheat). Hopefully your book has that in there, because most of the 'how to make your own bread' sites tell you to grab the yellow packet from the supermarket...

Again, not trying to say that any of this is impossible, just that a lot of it is going to be forgotten, at least for a decent amount of time while things calm down and some sort of order is created out of the destruction. And my main point was that we're less prepared for something like this than at any time I can think of, as we've pretty much moved from producers to consumers, and don't know how to make much of anything on our own anymore. We take it for granted that the supermarket or walmart just has these things. I'd starve to death trying to figure out something my great grandmother could have done in her spare time...
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Old October 10 2012, 08:20 PM   #285
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Re: The Revolution pilot is online now...

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Again, not trying to say that any of this is impossible, just that a lot of it is going to be forgotten, at least for a decent amount of time while things calm down and some sort of order is created out of the destruction. And my main point was that we're less prepared for something like this than at any time I can think of, as we've pretty much moved from producers to consumers, and don't know how to make much of anything on our own anymore. We take it for granted that the supermarket or walmart just has these things. I'd starve to death trying to figure out something my great grandmother could have done in her spare time...
I think your point is well taken that most of us could not survive in a world as depicted on Revolution without electricity. However, never under estimate some individuals surivival instincts and adability.

I think it's far to say that after 15 years those stil left would have adapted to this new enivornment and either gained the skills to bake bread [using your example] from scratch or would have long since perished.

Also - those with the skills to break bread from scratch would be valuable members of any community and protected by those who could not.
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