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Old September 7 2012, 04:51 AM   #31
Mr_Homn
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

R. Star wrote: View Post
It wasn't even just humans. It was all humanoids which covers the vast majority of all sentient life in the Trekverse. They can put whatever labels they want on it to justify it to themselves, but there's no getting around the fact they were morally lacking... not because they -had- the phobias of the solids but because they sought to control and dominate them through the Dominion.
Yep. I don't care if they didn't "view" it as evil. Armus would have approved of that kind of hatred and intolerance. It's the sort of thing he feeds off of. It's obviously not something his creators would retain if they are his total opposite.

R. Star wrote: View Post
Besides... that light thing Armus killed Yar with. The Founders never displayed abilities like that, or those to absorb phaser fire. Mirror Odo blew up quite easily and even the Martok changeling died after a few shots.

Founders also never showed the capability of generating energy fields around themselves that were capable of blocking sensors, communications, and transporters without the aid of any scientific equipment. They never showed the ability to manipulate and move around objects 30 feet away with their thoughts. (geordi's visor)

Those were things Armus could do that the Founders couldn't.
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Old September 7 2012, 08:26 AM   #32
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

You are selling the Founders quite short here, which I must continue to object to.

-Gamma quadrant and Vagra II are seperated by an extreme distance. Founders extremely, extraordinarily unlikely to be from Vagra II
Quite the opposite: Founders are established as traveling across the entire galaxy (Odo got from Gamma to Alpha), and as abandoning planet after planet in order to find a clean start and a better hideaway.

-Founders and other changelings like Odo or Laas have obvious negative qualities to their personalities. Insecurity, hatred, capable of orchestrating massive attacks on civilians, prejudice, violence, anger, etc.
And? Armus has those, too. So Founders would be a natural source, and good parent candidates.

On the other hand, the idea of "leaving evil behind" is too absurd to be taken seriously. Evil isn't a specific isolated quantity, it's the inherent consequence of thinking and inseparable from good. Even gods must compromise and smite a few cities every now and then. So, even if the Founders felt a bit better after dumping their worries on the hapless Armus, they'd soon be back to their old selves. And thus anything resembling Armus would be the best possible candidate for the origin of Armus.

-Armus has telekenetic powers that the Founders lack.
Laas had telekinetic powers. He flew through space without Newtonian thrust!

-Armus shows no ability to shape shift beyond a pool and a pile of sludge.
Which would be consistent for somebody punished by Founders. He's actually faring better than Odo! It would do no good to leave him with the ability to turn into a spaceship...

-Armus was capable of generating, around itself, an intense undefined energy field. With this energy field, it was capable of blocking sensors, communications, and transporters without the aid of any scientific equipment. The Founders simply could not do anything like this.
The Founders always block sensors. Even better, they fool the blocked sensors into thinking there is something else there.

The Founders can also, say, absorb phaser blasts to a degree (say, "Heart of Stone" or the long death in "Apocalypse Rising"). Just because Odo never made tactical use of such abilities is no proof of anything, as he was but an unskilled infant.

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Old September 7 2012, 04:58 PM   #33
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Timo wrote: View Post
Laas had telekinetic powers. He flew through space without Newtonian thrust!
No he just transformed into a comsmozoan (I think that's the right word)
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Old September 7 2012, 05:04 PM   #34
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

...And flew in formation with a runabout at impulse speeds, meaning he had what amounted to inborn powers of moving things about in a vacuum. That doesn't really fall short of telekinesis, even when he's just moving himself. (Armus could have been moving bits of himself, too, when yanking the phasers out of the hands of the heroes - just very small bits!)

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Old September 7 2012, 05:51 PM   #35
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Timo wrote: View Post
...And flew in formation with a runabout at impulse speeds, meaning he had what amounted to inborn powers of moving things about in a vacuum. That doesn't really fall short of telekinesis, even when he's just moving himself. (Armus could have been moving bits of himself, too, when yanking the phasers out of the hands of the heroes - just very small bits!)

Timo Saloniemi
Keep it PG, let's not talk about Armus' small bits
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Old September 7 2012, 05:56 PM   #36
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

^
Actually that would explain why he was so angry.
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Old September 7 2012, 09:31 PM   #37
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

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Old September 7 2012, 09:33 PM   #38
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

[QUOTE=Mr_Homn;6926219]
Timo wrote: View Post

On the other hand, the idea of "leaving evil behind" is too absurd to be taken seriously. Evil isn't a specific isolated quantity, it's the inherent consequence of thinking and inseparable from good. Even gods must compromise and smite a few cities every now and then.
Just because you don't buy into the idea of Armus in the first place, doesn't mean you throw the writers intent out the window. The creators of Armus have shed their evil, he is their "skin of evil", that's why he exists. He exists so they could live on without evil in them. The founders have plenty of negative attributes. The theory doesn't work, unless you choose to ignore the episode like you are.


Timo wrote: View Post
Laas had telekinetic powers. He flew through space without Newtonian thrust!
No, he did not. That has nothing to do with telekinetic powers.. It's also not the sort of powers I was referring to, and you know that, you were just purposely misunderstanding.

Armus manipulates objects that are 30+ feet away mentally. He moves geordi's visor with his mind. He sucks Riker in without touching him. Why don't the founders ever telekinetically rip the weapons out of their hands from their opponents?

The founders do not have these powers, and if they were capable of creating a being that had them, don't you think they would have used this to their advantage against their enemies? Of course they would.

Timo wrote: View Post
The Founders always block sensors. Even better, they fool the blocked sensors into thinking there is something else there.
I haven't seen every single ds9 episode (I'm working onit) but I know that the Founders use automated transponders to send back false life sensor readings in the Die Is Cast. Armus would never have to use technology for this, he clearly showed he could do it with his own natural powers. I'm fairly sure that the founders were never once were able to block communications and transporters with without the use of technology the way Armus was able to.

Your theories are fun and sometimes feasible, Timo, but they are much better when they are used to explain some apparent inconsistency or abide by the facts of the episodes. This is just a totally unnecessary, random, and unbelievable connection, and even more of a reach than your usual stuff (Which I often find very entertaining).
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Old September 7 2012, 09:43 PM   #39
Timo
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

No, he did not. That has nothing to do with telekinetic powers.. It's also not the sort of powers I was referring to, and you know that, you were just purposely misunderstanding.
You don't seem to understand the physics involved. What Laas does is more than what Armus does - which means that Armus could be a Founder crippled by his creators, much like Odo once was.

Armus manipulates objects that are 30+ feet away mentally. He moves geordi's visor with his mind. He sucks Riker in without touching him.
Laas manipulates objects that are hundreds of thousands of kilometers away at the very least! That's what it means to be able to glide through space without spitting propellant out of your ass - you're pushing off distant planets. Or perhaps off the very structure of space itself, which is an even greater feat and allows for a greater range of magic, certainly involving the levitating of other people's accessories. And he does that "mentally", without using tentacles or other physical things. Just like Armus.

The founders do not have these powers, and if they were capable of creating a being that had them, don't you think they would have used this to their advantage against their enemies? Of course they would.
The Founders do not use powers of any sort (including simple brawn) against their enemies in any episode. They don't fight: they have others to do it for them. There would be no point in using telekinesis against Odo when he grabs "Leyton" in "Homefront", or against Sisko when he feebly tries to swing his phaser at "Bashir" in "The Adversary" before "Bashir" changes to goo that rushes into a vent.

On the other hand, Founders do amazing things in goo form. That leap "Bashir" performed in "The Adversary" is already as good as levitation.

Clearly they have nothing to do with Armus.
Armus demonstrates lesser powers than the Founders. So he may be unrelated, or he may be a hobbled Founder. Both options remain open.

The Founders use automated transponders to send back false life sensor readings in the Die Is Cast.
Or so the Romulans think, at any rate.

Armus would never have to use technology for this, he clearly showed he could do it with his own natural powers.
Not a matter of powers. If Armus did it himself, he would be in the receiving end of Armageddon-level bombardment. The Founders were simply smarter than that.

Founders were never once were able to block communications and transporters with without the use of technology the way Armus was able to.
When would they have wanted to block communications or transporters?

This is just a totally unnecessary, random, and unbelievable connection
Quite so. But it's a possible one if one so prefers, and takes a lot of effort to actually rule out.

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Old September 7 2012, 09:52 PM   #40
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

So you're saying the Founders and Laas and possibly Odo were capable of moving all sorts of objects and people around with the power of their minds, but over the course of seven seasons of DS9 it just... never came up? Right.

I think someone as imaginative as yourself could come up with several other explanations for Laas's ability to do what he did without Telekinesis. Perhaps he just shapeshifted into a solar sail for most of his journey and that allowed him to pick up speed more and more in the inertia of space.

I don't think it takes much effort at all to disprove the theory, within reason. I've already done so multiple times in this thread. You just choose not to accept it.
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Old September 7 2012, 10:04 PM   #41
Timo
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

moving all sorts of objects and people around with the power of their mind
What other power could they use? Their physical form doesn't seem to have mass or substance to speak of; every time they move an object, they are really using a power alien to us.

I think someone as imaginative as yourself could come up with several other explanations for Laas's ability to do what he did without Telekinesis. Perhaps he just shapeshifted into a solar sail for most of his journey and that allowed him to pick up speed more and more in the inertia of space.
Laas is not a limited creature. He can turn into fog or fire; suggesting that he can't propel himself through space on the power of his mind is inconsistent and unnecessary.

Unless we categorically assume that Laas doesn't actually shapeshift and act, but merely creates the illusion of that in the minds of the observers. It may be that this is how Changelings work. But then again, it would also be a good explanation to how Armus works: like a Talosian (only better), he tells our heroes to throw their phasers into the tar pit, then tells Riker to dive in there, too, and in reality he's just a small, balding man behind the curtain and nothing he appears to do actually takes place physically...

Really, it's pretty hopeless to disprove that a creature of great powers would not be related to another creature of great powers: the powers themselves automatically enable the connection in all circumstances. The only "proof" comes from the dramatic undesirability of a connection: in a galaxy full of wonders, why should any wonder A be related to B? Well, if the story connecting them is good, why not?

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Old September 8 2012, 12:38 AM   #42
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Timo wrote: View Post
Laas is not a limited creature. He can turn into fog or fire; suggesting that he can't propel himself through space on the power of his mind is inconsistent and unnecessary.
But he wasn't using his mind...

Besides there's no evidence Changelings can imitate telepathy and telekinesis only physical forms.
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Old September 8 2012, 01:20 AM   #43
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Timo wrote: View Post
But it's a possible one if one so prefers, and takes a lot of effort to actually rule out.
Timo wrote: View Post
Really, it's pretty hopeless to disprove that a creature of great powers would not be related to another creature of great powers...
It's very difficult to prove a negative. That doesn't mean the premise you are putting forth is not ridiculous.

It's very difficult to prove that Romulans don't have secret shape-shifting ability they just never mentioned or bothered to use.

It's very difficult to prove conclusively that Picard is not a hermaphrodite.

It's very difficult to prove that the Borg are not an offshoot of a secret Ferengi experiment.

But, with some powers of observation, and a little common sense, you can rule this stuff out.
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Old September 8 2012, 01:42 AM   #44
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

I think the OP's idea that Armus and the Founders are one and the same solely because they both shape-shift, and the hoops through logic that people are spouting to try to justify this, is utterly silly, and indicative of so many fanwankish ideas of Trek's "Small Universe" syndrome. By that logic, the liquid metal Terminator in T2 must have been a Founder as well.
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Old September 8 2012, 02:28 AM   #45
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Re: Origin of Armus - Exiled Founder?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
By that logic, the liquid metal Terminator in T2 must have been a Founder as well.
So that's what happens when the Borg assimilate Changelings!
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